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rome or egypt
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ben41193
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am 12 my spelling has never been good at all i have always had trouble with my punctuations as well.
To mersesankh i meen no disrespect but rome was not at all barbaric for there gladiatorial games. I like to think of them as a modern day paroll board just with more blood. Gladiators werent killed evedry game think of them as race horses people put a lot of time and money into them and would not kill them for losing one race.
And i may sound spitefull but please dont take it that way what i say may seem like im trying to be but im not im sorry if you missunderstood wha i was saying.
HHeiroglyphs were increadably saphisticated yes but have you ever heard of rube gilberg. i probaly said his name wrong but who care. He became famouse for overcomplicating simple acts. thats what the egyptions did they overcomplicated a simple thing.
egypt was small and you say they had little slaves you ever heard of the isrealites. During some part im not sure when i do know they were a very strong empire streching to east asia i beleave and yes that was good but not even a knick in the romans armor
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Meresankh
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daniella wrote:
Actually I believe he said he was only 12, in my eyes that's a child. And I think you are all too hard on him. I think before you go and criticise people you should make sure that they are not children. Rolling Eyes


That's true enough, at that age you often find it hard to express what you think. I'd still love to know what his reasons are, though!
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Daniella
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
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So I think that rolling your eyes at us is a tad over the top on your part.

Oh geez, rolling my eyes isn't a big deal, it just represents my emotions towards the situation. I don't understand why you think the little emoticon is 'over the top'. Laughing How about that one?
isisinacrisis wrote:
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Is it me, or do you find ben's posts a bit offensive and immature in tone?

See?
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Meresankh
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ben41193 wrote:
I am 12 my spelling has never been good at all i have always had trouble with my punctuations as well.
To mersesankh i meen no disrespect but rome was not at all barbaric for there gladiatorial games. I like to think of them as a modern day paroll board just with more blood. Gladiators werent killed evedry game think of them as race horses people put a lot of time and money into them and would not kill them for losing one race.
And i may sound spitefull but please dont take it that way what i say may seem like im trying to be but im not im sorry if you missunderstood wha i was saying.
HHeiroglyphs were increadably saphisticated yes but have you ever heard of rube gilberg. i probaly said his name wrong but who care. He became famouse for overcomplicating simple acts. thats what the egyptions did they overcomplicated a simple thing.
egypt was small and you say they had little slaves you ever heard of the isrealites. During some part im not sure when i do know they were a very strong empire streching to east asia i beleave and yes that was good but not even a knick in the romans armor


Hello, thanks for replying, nice to talk to you! Sorry, I don't have a lot of time right now, but I'll try to reply to this sometime soon. Don't take it the wrong way, I'm old enough to be your Mum! Not that that means your opinions aren't valid, of course. Talk to you sometime soon, I hope.
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teamtunafish
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting point. Ben, what do you mean by that?
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ben41193
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im confused i made several points wich one
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isisinacrisis
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I'm sorry if I sounded offensive Daniella. I know he's young, and I'm sorry. I understand, but I just get a bit bugged out by comments that make no sense...I mean:

Quote:

HHeiroglyphs were increadably saphisticated yes but have you ever heard of rube gilberg. i probaly said his name wrong but who care. He became famouse for overcomplicating simple acts. thats what the egyptions did they overcomplicated a simple thing.


What do you mean by they over complicated a simple thing-what simple thing did the Egyptians overcomplicate? I don't understand.

Quote:
egypt was small and you say they had little slaves you ever heard of the isrealites.


Actually, recent historical discoveries have shown that the Israelites were not completely 'enslaved' by the Egyptians. This is still controversial as it goes against what the bible says, but it is very much accepted by scholars. The Hebrews lived in Egypt, that's for sure, and some of them may well have been slaves, but a lot of them weren't, actually-they were free men, I think. kmt-sesh has written some very interesting threads and topics on this subject on this forum.
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ben41193
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

they over complicated there written language
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think that's a fair assesment. The egyptians at some point developed hieratic writing (a cursive type writing) which was a script that lend itself more to quickly writing things down. It seems to have been a highly sophisticated way of writing.

The egyptian language was less complex than say Chinese is today, and we definitely wouldn't go so far as to say that the Chinese over complicate things. Or heaven forbid a "flawed culture".

The more old fashioned hieroglyphic writing looks rather amazing, but remember that this was the official language used in official settings.

And using complexity of a language to denounce a culture is a road you may not want to travel.
Think about the english language used in official government language today. It can be extremely obtuse and hard to follow. Try reading your tax forms Shocked And I would not say that the US or Brittain is a flawed culture just because the language used by the government is overly complex.


I think most ancient cultures have a barbaric side to them. The Romans did pit gladiators against one another with the express purpose for one of then to kill the other. They had public executions including the public killing of Christians (feeding to the lions, crucifiction). And that does not fit my personal definition of civilized behavior. And comparing human beings to race horses who may just get killed does not negate the fact that this was pretty awful.

And, true the Egyptians also executed people, but that was usually war related not done as a spectator sport.

Egyptians did hold slaves. There were many people captured on the battle field and they were also included in the tribute that foreign nations payed.
But it is also true that there was a lot of room for upward mobility of these captives. There is one case where an attendant of the pharaoh (I think he was his barber) received a slave while tending to his king on a campaign. The slave later married the man's niece and was made the heir of the man's estates.
I'm sure not all slaves saw such a happy end to his or her situation, but it does illustrate that there were definite possibilities.


In the end I think it's just not necessary to put down one culture to make the other look better. Both Egypt and Rome have a very interesting history. There's no accounting for taste, so some will prefer one of the other.

Rome did contribute quite a bit. Their architecture, literature, etc are interesting and I'm sure there are many people absolutely fascinated by this slice of history Very Happy
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Meresankh
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello, Ben, said I'd reply to your post above when I had the chance. As I said, don't take this as a personal criticism. If you like just think of me as your old mum, nagging you!

First, I accept that being a gladiator was giving guys who would otherwise have been executed as criminals a second chance. Yes, the odds against being killed were about 50-1. But when you get down to it, it was still guys killing each other for entertainment. But what about the barbarity practised against animals, which was much worse than that against humans, and there wasn't the excuse that the animals were criminals? Probably millions of animals were killed in Roman amphitheatres to provide "entertainment" - this wasn't even like hunting, where the animal had a chance to escape. Now, I don't suppose that Egyptians were particularly sentimental about animals, but as far as I know, they didn't go in for wanton, pointless cruelty towards them either.

You say that hieroglyphics over-complicated a simple thing. Well, compared to the alphabet they were overcomplicated. We can see that the alphabet is obviously simpler now - but if you had lived five and a half thousand years ago, that wouldn't have been obvious at all. Just imagine yourself trying to find a way to preserve your thoughts, and communicate them to people you couldn't talk to, five and a half thousand years ago. It wouldn't have been obvious to you that you needed a different symbol for each sound - the obvious thing to you would have been to draw a picture to convey the idea of what you were talking about. Then gradually, the picture/symbol would come to be associated with the sound of the word seperated from the idea the word was conveying- but there was not yet a distinct symbol for each meaningful sound of a language. That took another step, using the symbol for the initial sound of the word. Then gradually, people came to realise that this was all you needed and those aspects of hieroglyphic writing that were redundant could be whittled away. But this took a long time, believe me the development of the alphabet was a long, slow process. It seems likely though, that the hieratic form of writing Egyptian influenced the development of the alphabet, when it finally took form amongst the Phoenicians.

Now, slavery is a difficult issue. It all depends on what you mean by slavery. The usual definition of "slave" is "someone bound to someone else as their property". Well, people being bound to someone else, in the sense of having legal obligations towards them which they could not get out of, certainly existed in Egypt. People often call this "indentured servitude". The question is , were they seen as property? It's not clear. Certainly, "bondsmen" in Egypt, and in the ancient Middle East in general, had certain legal rights. They could own property in their own right, enter into contracts, and marry non-"slaves". The question is difficult, but we seem to have quite a different state of affairs than the absolute distinction between slave and free that existed in Graeco-Roman antiquity. Also, it seems that it was never very common in ANcient Egypt, probably most common in the New Kingdom. As for the Israelites, it seems likely that the events of the Exodus have some basis in fact, but have been exaggerated over the years, a bit like our stories about King Arthur. These probably have a basis in fact, but as each generation has gone by, bits have been added to the stories, and they've become more and more exaggerated. This was normal in ancient times. They had a completely over the top, exaggerated way of expressing themselves. It's like, Ramasses II claims to have won a great victory at the battle of Kadesh, when it was probably a close-run thing. Everything was over the top and exaggerated.

Anyway, hope this has been a help to you!
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Daniella
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meresankh wrote:
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Now, I don't suppose that Egyptians were particularly sentimental about animals,

I beg to differ, I thought that the ancient Egyptians loved and respected all creatures. They depicted them in almost every wall painting, loads of statues, and don't forget the immense pantheon of gods and goddesses in the forms of animals. I mean if they didn't love the animals of the gods, then how could they worship the god? They even kept some as pets, and I'm not just talking about cats, but dogs, birds, gazelles, and most importantly horses. And I think that they also kept a bunch of crocodiles in a sacred pond in a temple to worship the god Sobek. And what about the Apis bulls?

I believe Akhenaten had a special liking towards animals too, remember all of the depictions of his daughter holding a small gazelle?

I don't know, maybe I'm over-reacting, I just LOVE animals! Very Happy
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isisinacrisis
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love animals too!

And I am certain the Egyptians did too. Sure they killed cattle for meat, or fished, but that was for food. Even then they respected cattle and had deities relating to cattle-Hathor and Apis. And it was illegal to kill a cat-anyone who did would be executed! The Egyptians, I think, viewed the natural world as sacred and many animals were seen as aspects of the gods-including the humble dung beetle.
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ben41193
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thats funny saying that the animals had no chance u kill a lion with noting but a sword. Every animal they killed could have easly killd the men.
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Daniella
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A sword is an extention of your arm, we as humans can kill anything we want to because we can create weapons, therefore enabling innocent animals to become defensless.

If the animals could have killed the humans, then why didn't they?
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ben41193
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

they did. although people killed more animals than animals killd them. The animals did somtimes take the prize. Just like modern day bull fights.
Or even hunting we are using high powerd rifles and we still often get killed or injerd and ill bet no one here could kill any dangerouse animal with a sword it was a very skillfull art
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