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Titles and Age Requirements for Pharoahs

 
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:43 am    Post subject: Titles and Age Requirements for Pharoahs Reply with quote

I'm currently doing a project on Hatshepsut. I read that it was not until she died that the term "Pharoah" was used as a title. I read that Thutmose III who reigned after Hatshepsut used the title on himself first. Is that true?

I already know that Hatshepsut used the term "Makere" Hatshepsut for herself but: What title did the Pharoahs use on themselves before the term "Pharoah" ?

Hatshepsut's reign as co-regeant also raised some other questions. I'd also like to know what exaclty were the requiements to become Pharoah?

I also read that Hatshepsut decided to become co-regeant when Thutmose II died because the successor Thutmose III wasn't of age yet.

Is there an age minimum during or before the Hatshepsut's reign for being a "Pharoah"?

I'd also like to confirm if it's true that inheritence was passed on through women in ancient Egypt. This particular fact comes from She Was Queen of Egypt by Winifred Holmes on page 18. Holmes said that in order to become Pharoah males had to marry a royal woman of the right blood line, like Hatshepsut.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just realized that this went unanswered Smile

The word "pharaoh" comes from "per-aa".

Quote:
The term "per-aa" means "great house" and developed via the Greek, into the word we now use today. "Per-aa" was originally used to describe the royal court or the state itself, in the sense that the "great house" was the entity responsible for the taxation of the lesser houses ("perw"), which were the temple lands and private estates. From the late 18th Dynasty and onwards, "per-aa" had begun to be used to refer to the actual king himself.

from: http://www.egyptologyonline.com/pharaohs.htm

The king used titles like "Lord of the Two lands" (Neb-tawy) and "Son of Re" to indicate their kingship.

The requirements for becoming king were usually that you were the son of the previous one I think Smile
I don't think there was so much a minimum age to become pharaoh. It seems that the egyptians considered someone adult at 16. If a prince was much younger than that there was usually a regent appointed I think.

The way that the throne was inherited was on occasion a bit "bumpy". Tuthmosis I was apparently not the son of a king. After Tuthmosis I it becomes a bit murky as well. During T I's reign the crown prince Amenmose was clearly groomed for the throne. His name appears in a cartouche in some places. Upon his death the throne went to his (half) brother Tuthmosis II. After the death of Tuthmosis II, Hatshepsut steps in as regent and later takes on pharaonic perogatives.

Quote:
'd also like to confirm if it's true that inheritence was passed on through women in ancient Egypt. This particular fact comes from She Was Queen of Egypt by Winifred Holmes on page 18. Holmes said that in order to become Pharoah males had to marry a royal woman of the right blood line, like Hatshepsut.

I personally don't think this is true. This theory was prevalent until the early 80's. It has since then been shown to have severe problems.

The whole idea that the throne was inherited through the Queen seems rather weak to me. When Tuthmosis I came to the throne he had 2 queens Mutnofret and Ahmes. Mutnofret was a King's Daughter, but it seems that the woman with the most influence was Ahmes. Queen Ahmes was never called King's Daughter, only King's Wife and King's Sister. It seems that she was actually the full sister of Tuthmosis. And hence actually a descendant of Senisonb, the mother of Tuthmosis I, not the main Taosid royal line.

Similarly when Tuthmosis III comes to the throne, the first Great Royal Wife was Sitiah. Sitiah was the daughter of a general, not anyone royal.
A later wife was Merytre Hatshepsut, who was the daughter of a Amun Priestess, again with no discernable royal connections.

Amenhotep II doesn't list any great royal wife at all. So if this woman he received the throne from is so important, then why isn't she ever even mentioned?

After that we see Tuthmosis IV, who gets to the throne via some power struggle. He was known to have had 3 wives: Nefertiry, Iaret and Mutemwia. Iaret is his sister, but he only marries her later on in his reign. Nefertiry is of unknown origin. The throne goes to his son by Mutemwia, who is not even attested during his reign.
Amenhotep III's wife is also not royal.

Some speculate about this female line of descendants of Ahmose Nefertari, but I don't see any evidence for such a cognate line at all.

I know there are people who still adhere to the theory, so you may get some dissenting opinions.
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VBadJuJu
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anneke gave a very good answer, but I might flesh out a few areas, in case this might still be relevant.

Quote:
I read that Thutmose III who reigned after Hatshepsut used the title on himself first. Is that true?

Technically, they reigned together for many years - 2-4-1 Pharoahs! Hatshepsut had been married to Thutmose II and Thutmose III was his son by another wife apparently. When he died, T-III was too young to rule alone so Hatshepsut acted as regent for a few years. She soon had herself made Pharoah but didnt do away with Thuthmose III, they ruled together (with her more or less in the forefront) for about 20 years before she died.

As for the Queens bloodline, or marrying into it, that doesnt hold up under scrutiny as Anneke showed, but in the absence of a male heir it was still a way to the throne, just not the only way. Some who descended from the King but not the Great Royal Wife seem fond of marrying her daughters, perhaps as a way of consolidating their claim to the throne. Tut, Smenkhare and Aye all married daughters of Nefertiti. Aye had virtually no claim whatsoever to the throne, but seems to have seized it by marrying Ankhessenamun, Tut's widow.

I dont know what the theory had been based on but, you could get that sense from a number of places. In letters with Syrian kings Amenhotep III was always negortiating for wives. When a Syrian asked him for an Egyptian daughter, he was laughed off and told 'no daughter of Egypt had ever been sent out and never would be'.

Another letter, almost certainly from Ankhessenamun, she tells the Hittite king that her husband is dead and she has no sons and begs him to send her a prince 'and I will make him King of Egypt'. Since she was the last surviving direct descendant of Akhenaten and Nefertiti, it seems it would be true in that case.

Evidence like the above and the times when others did become king by marrying into the bloodline (including their own siblings) might lead to the wrong conclusion.

HTH
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:41 pm    Post subject: Pharaoh Reply with quote

Quote:
The title "pharaoh", more accurately spelled "faraoh", is no Egyptian invention because it is appropriate for males only:

.fa - ara - a.o - oh.
afa - ara - aho - oha
afa - aragikeria - ahokatu - ohaide
pleasing - fornication - to engage in - concubine
"Engaged in pleasing fornication (with a) concubine".

Otto Muck in "Cheops et la Grande Pyramide" (1978) p.114, claims that the Shepherd Philitis brought the title to Egypt from the north, witness Stonehenge in England. Diop calls this an insipid notion. Pharaoh is an agglutinated title, likely of Latin origin; neither the Egyptians nor Greeks pronounced the 'ph' as 'f'.


...Pa meaning place
ara meaning fornication or orgy
oha meaning concubine


Once during the most ancient days, only a very few people were literate in Egypt. During periods of upheaval, including wars between rival tribal clans and or vassal states - between Upper and Lower Egypt- the term Per aA , basically signified the house of the literate which not incidentally also was the United Nations of clans and religious powers ie Hem Netjer.

Later in time when FOREIGN war lords conquered Egypt in the aftermath of the Santorini events, a genocidal massacre was encated by the despots who found a great deal or resistence from those tribal clan regions which no longer accepted time honored roles as subservient vassal states.
The Hyksoss kidnapped the female chiefs and noble women after ethnically cleansing their sepats of noble males. These regions were effectively now vassal states of the Hyksoss soldiers and their mercenary armies who took delight in typical fashion - eg d0mination of females via violence. The heiresses and other indigenous noblewomen were forced to marry their enemies. The Hyksoss made these women queens in order to produce their own armies of divine warriors with the blood of the Gods in their veins. Scribes retained from the pre Hyksoss era were largely the only literate people remaining. They took to naming these despots with unusual flourish under the guise of religious bow and scraping.
The heiroglyphic that used to transliterate the great meeting house ( U.N.) came to read ' whore house'. Eventually the term would mean he who fornicates or is begotten of prostitutes. In the Late Kingdom it meant
son of a whore basically with the introduction of the Greek f stop.
eg .fA meaning gratifying

So if one revisits how the ancestors of Hatshepsut eventually usurped their Palestinian overlords and recall where the heriditary chiefs that vanquished the Hyksoss came from and follows that chronology to the birth of Hatshepsut-
Ill let the better writers/researchers fill in the blanks
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let the record note that Otto Muck is an Disney Land "researcher" who at one point
theorized that Disney Land had been on the Atlantic Ridge, populated by seven-foot Cro-Magnons who spoke Basque and were kind to eels. Disney Land sunk, according to Muck on at 8 pm, June 5, 8498 BC.
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maahes
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a discussion on this forum somewhere about female Sem Priests.
TO understand Hatsphesut one must place her within the context of her time and the realities of her recent ancestor's time.

I could not possibly reitterate what anneke, sesen and rozetta wrote on this issue but will go search for it and link it here.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:00 pm    Post subject: Stand corrected that was anneke and sesen Reply with quote

Quote:
Sesen wrote:
Thanks for the info on his children - thats really interesting
Quote:
In Paheri's tomb there's mention of a paternal uncle named Meky.


Do you mean paternal or maternal here?


You're right, I goofed when I wrote that. Meky is described as "the brother of his mother" so that would be a maternal uncle.

I find it interesting that Peheri is the one who becomes monarch and finishes Ahmose of Ebana's tomb. I wonder if Meky died before his father Ahmose? Otherwise I would have expected him to be the one in power and overlooking the burial of his father.

Sesen wrote:
I found it intriguing that the wife of Paheri, Henut-er-neheh was a sem priest.

I didn't even pick up on that I wonder what the other women in the family did?
They lived in the same time period as Queens Ahhotep and Ahmose-Nefertari. With Queen Ahhotep acting as regent and apparently even being involved with putting down a revolt and being buried with what seems like some military honors, it makes me wonder if such role models would influence the women of the time. Since the men in the family were royal tutors, the women must have also known the royal family.
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Sesen
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:56 pm Post subject:

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Henut-er-neheh kindof stuck out because I was thinking of Paheri being a tutor to Wadjmose and Amenmose, brothers of Hatshepsut. If there was an air of woman having positions usually taken by men, this would have been the environment that Hatshepsut grew up in.
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anneke
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:17 am Post subject:

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Hatshepsut actually did pass through my mind when I wrote that

She did apparently grow up when women around here were very involved in every aspect of life.
I wonder too if it was a by-product of the war time they were experiences. There was quite a bit of fighting under Ahmose and even Amenhotep-I I think. so the men may have been away on military campaigns.

Still have spice girl songs playing in your head?
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This is the most useful dialogue I've personally read about Hatshepsut in twenty some years of grindstone knuckle dragging.
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