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Did Thutmosis IV take the throne from someone else??
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maahes
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems to me that Horemheb was likely Peer Beloved Companion of Thutmose' Amenhotep III's heir apparent. Perhaps the son of a steward of a Heriditary noble. In this hypothetical situation, Horemheb is gifted as a teenaged adolescent to Crown Prince Thutmose and after Thutmose's death, finds himself in an unenviable position. He is the property of Ramose and Ramose the property of at least two generations of kings.
What was Ramose's name when he served Amenhotep III? IF there are more than one Ramose stretched across this time period...noblemen viziers claimed the sons of their stewards in name= the stewards especially those of foriegn vassal states, ie Nyala ( horemheb) would become the "sons" of the Noble clan patrilineally of course. Getting back to Ptah speak..
how many nobles in record with Ptah in their cartouche link Amenhotep III to Tutankhamun? Im sorry if I seem a bit dizzy. We had a very wet and cold weekend - im still recovering.
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Rozette
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote maahes,
What was Ramose's name when he served Amehotep III ?

Theban tomb 55 Vizier Ramose
Theban tomb 41 Steward and Overseer of the granaries of Upper and Lower Egypt.

Quote , how many nobles in record with Ptah in the cartouche

In my book they mentioned a Ptahmose who was Southern vizier and High priest of Amun at the same time. Very unusually, he was one of the greatest of the high officials who served under Amenhotep III.


High priests of Ptah, the" chiefs of the master craftsmen" in Memphis, despite the confusing preference most of them had for the name Ptahmose.

Ptahmose who served as high priest of Ptah in the first part of the reign, was a son of the vizier Thutmose and the full brother of Meriptah, the steward of Amenhotep III's mortuary temple.

After the death of prince Thutmosis ( eldest son of Amenhotep III )who also was High priest of Ptah in Memphis, the position reverted to another Ptahmose who was a relative of the former High priest Thutmosis.
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Rozette
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MURNANE, William J., Too Many High Priests? Once Again the Ptahmoses of Ancient Memphis, in: For His Ka. Essays Baer, 187-196.

The solution for the problem of the chronological position of the XVIIIth Dynasty Memphite high priests, four of which bore the name Ptahmose, lies with the statue that Ptahmose III's son dedicated to his father's mortuary cult at the end of the latter's life. The style places it within the last decade of Amenhotep III's reign. The author discusses the implications for the succession of the Memphite high priests, with special attention to the probable family connection between Ptahmose III and Ptahmose V. M.W.K.
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maahes
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it safe to assume that the position of Ptahmose was usurped, replaced or transformed during the period of Atenism?

If so, does it reappear subsequent to the isolation of Akhetaten?

Aye may have been archbishop of Akhetaten during its isolation.
But im curious who took over the roles provided by the Ptahmose?
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maahes
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...something tells me that the coveted Ptahmose priests may have largely been male until Akhetaten.
IS it possible that Nefertiti and her female descendents became the equivalents of Ptahmose?

What is the relationship between Mut and Ptah?
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rozette wrote:
Quote:
In my book they mentioned a Ptahmose who was Southern vizier and High priest of Amun at the same time. Very unusually, he was one of the greatest of the high officials who served under Amenhotep III.

Smile That guy sounds interesting - what an extrordinary pair of titles. That puts a huge amount of authority and wealth in the hands of one man.
Does your book say what text, statue or whatever gives his High Priest of Amun title? I have him as Vizier but did'nt have him as High Priest.
For Amun's High Priests during Amenhotep III I have: Amenemhet and MeryPtah, with Maya holding office till Yr 4 Akhenaten.

One other question
Quote:
Ptahmose who served as high priest of Ptah in the first part of the reign, was a son of the vizier Thutmose and the full brother of Meriptah, the steward of Amenhotep III's mortuary temple.

Do you think that means a Vizier called Thutmose or a Vizier under Thutmose (maybe IV?)?
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Rozette
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ptahmose, who claimed no fewer than three Theban titles,
"Major of the Southern City"
"Vizier of the Southern City"
"High priest of Amon"
on one of his commenorative monuments. (Helck 1958)

It is possible , however that A III predilection for the Theban area (as witnessed by the construction, of the palace town at Malqata and the king's extended residence there) so intensified the central government 's direct involvement in local affairs that the mayors office was absorbed at least temporarily into the Upper Egytpian vizier's department.

One of the greatest of the high official who served under A III, and the most ambigious, was the vizier Ptahmose, whom we have already met as "mayor od the southern City". Certaily he was among the most highly honored subjects not only of his reign but of the entire 18th dynasty.
His monuments though few, are unusually informative up to a point. Not only is he unambiguously dated to A III reign, but he claims to have served in two positions both at the apex of their respective hierarchies that were seldom held by the same person : "vizier in the Southern city" and high priest of Amon.
Not surprisingly, there is some controversy over when and how he managed to acquire such a constellation of titles.
It is generally thought that he held his two highest posts in succession, since as a rule they are not combined in this way : Hapuseneb, who was high priest under Thutmose III and Hatshepsut, is the only other man who claimed both offices, but the meaning of his vizier's title is obscure, and it occurs only on one of his many monuments.

Ptahmose, by contrast, bears both titles on nearly all the pieces that attest to his career. If he held these offices in sequence, his tenure as vizier would have fallen before AIII last decade on the throne, when the post was held by another ; and since his pontificate could not have fallen in the middle years of the reign, it could only fit near its beginning (Bryan suggests that Ptahmose may also served Thutmosis IV as high priest and vizier) or at its end perhaps extending into the early reign of A IV, although this seems unlikely.
(Redford argues that May the nickname claimed by the high priest of Amon in year 4 of A IV, derived from a formal name ending in -mose and thus suggests Ptahmose. But one would expect the iconoclasts to have inflicted more damage on the mortuary monuments of the last high priest of Amon before the Amarna period than is the case here : see helck 1955 - 1958. )

There are no convincing reasons to exclude the possibility that A III appointed Ptahmose to both positions at once, even for a significant period of time. Since such an unusual tenure of office might be a harbinger of the struggle that broke out between the Amon's clergy and the royal house in the following reign, it is pity that the facts cannot be established any more clearly. As a result, Ptahmose remains an anomaly, both as vizier and high priest.
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Rozette
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote Sesen ,
Do you think that means a Vizier called Thutmose or a Vizier under Thutmose (maybe IV?) ?

According to Murnane and Bryan one man, named Thutmose northern vizier, has been dated to this period (Helck) on improbably slender grounds, and he may belong instead to the time of Thutmose IV or even earlier.
So, I think this could mean that there was a vizier whose name was Thutmose , who served under Thutmose IV and A III ?

Quote Sesen,
For Amun's High Priests during A III I have : Amenemhet and MeryPtah, with Maya holding office till YR 4 Akhenaten.

In my book they place Amenemhet in the second half of the 18th dynasty, who was appointed first prophet after having achieved only the office of pure priest at the age of fifty-four. (Helck and Bryan)
Apart from Ptahmose, whose problematic tenure has been discussed earlier, only one High Priest is known to have served during the reign of A III. This was MeryPtah.

The Organization of Government under Amenhotep III
William J. Murnane
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't remember if this was mentioned yet Cool

There's a list of Viziers here:
http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/administration/viziers.html

Southern viziers
18th Dynasty

* Tetinefer ????
* Iymhetep (seal UC 12176) Tuthmosis I
* Aakheperreseneb Tuthmosis II?
* Hepuseneb Hatshepsut
* Ahmose Hatshepsut- Tuthmosis III
* Amunuser Tuthmosis II? - Tuthmosis III
* Rekhmire Tuthmosis III - Amenhotep II
* Amunemipat (TT29) Amenhotep II (and Tuthmosis IV?)
* Seny ????
* Hepu Tuthmosis IV
* Ptahmose Amenhotep III?
* Ramose Amenhotep III - Akhenaten?
* Nakhtpaaten Akhenaten
* Usermont Tutankhamen
* Pentu Tutankhamen
* Aja (?) maybe Tutankhamen?



 Northern viziers

* Neferweben Tuthmosis III
* Ptahmose Amenhotep III
* Ptahhotep ??????
* Thotmose Tuthmosis IV - Amenhotep III ???
* Amenhotep Amenhotep III
* Aperel Amenhotep III
* Paramessu Horemheb
* Setkhy ???


I added in the kings whose rule they were associated with.
I'm not sure if the division along northern and southern viziers is entirely correct.
And there are 4 I can't quite place Very Happy
Plus a couple missing? Or not?

 
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maahes
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What was going on in Memphis after Amnehotep III?

I wonder if Ptahmose acted as nomarch/king of lower Egypt during the next few clicks in time?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy Thanks so much Rozette for the info, its much appreciated and very interesting. I must add Murnanes book to my wish list.
Very Happy Thanks Anneke for the link too, hadn't spotted that list before - its pretty extensive.

maahes I think in Memphis and away from close proximity to Akhetaten that in a way some of the traditional gods still retained position, although I don't think that could be said of Ptah due to him being one of the creator gods.
The tomb of Aper-el shows signs of a more or less traditional burial (what I mean there is that there are inscriptions giving him as 'true of voice' and beloved of Osiris) and that of Re Hatiay depicts scenes of offerings to Osiris and the Opening of the Mouth ceremony being performed. These two men operated in Memphis.
I expect Ptah would have copped the cold shoulder during Akhenaten's rule but I don't personally think that it was a issue for Amen III.
With Tutankhamun on the throne we see a High Priest of Ptah installed by the not so surprising name of MeryPtah.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What do you sense was going on in Memphis and the Delta regions at this time? DO you suppose a shadow government was already in place?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure what you mean exactly by "shadow government". I think that Akhenaten had his own men put in place in other sites. Just like in other time periods.
Hatiay was known to be 'scribe of the two granaries of the Temple of Aten in Memphis, and a certain Ramose (not the vizier) who was 'steward of the mansion of the Aten'. The latter was even depicted with his wife going to view the sun disk. So there was a temple dedicated to the Aten up in Memphis which I think shows the influence of Akhenaten.

Aperel was the Northern Vizier and was buried at Saqqara, together with his wife and his son Huy who was a general. These burials date to the middle of Akhenaten's reign if I remember correctly, so I think there was a presence of regular court officials there at the time.

Similarly I think there is mention of Aten Priests at On (Heliopolis)?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Similarly I think there is mention of Aten Priests at On (Heliopolis)?

I found some references to signs and inferences of some level of an Aten cult that predates Akhenaten. Not mere references to the sun disk but with divine determinatives indicating it was recognized as a god long before Akhenaten though he clearly amplified the cult.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I vaguely think I've read of Aten priests at On but I can't remember anything specific. Would make perfect sense though as Aten is identified with Re Harakhte - On could perhaps be the best place for a earlier cult centre for Aten.

I tend to think that Thutmose IV's dream stela gives a bit of an indication of a shift in affiliation to Re (or in that case Re Harmakhet-Khepri-Atum) and a bit of a sly kick in the guts to Amun's priesthood.
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