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Families in the New Kingdom
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imanobody
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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It wasn't due to the fact of a polar shift but was as punishment for killing the desert Bigfoot family.

You should call them up, they'll probably let you on the air with that story Laughing

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I hope you got some sleep.

Not till really late. They started talking about a women that cheated against her boyfriend with an alien. She said that she ended up having a kid that looked like a grasshopper. Her boyfriend was so mad (not sure if it was due to her cheating on him with an alien or the grasshopper baby thingy) that he left her. #Beer 0X
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Her boyfriend was so mad (not sure if it was due to her cheating on him with an alien or the grasshopper baby thingy) that he left her.


Oh, what's the big deal? It's just a grasshopper-human hybrid. I mean, how long can it live?

Are these the same aliens who built the pyramids? Laughing
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imanobody
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Are these the same aliens who built the pyramids?

According the the guy that was talking last night, No. These aliens come to earth just to screw with us (and that is sometimes a literal statement). He should know because he was constainty harrassed by these aliens from the age of 12 to 17. It seems that they get off tuanting poeple in the middle of night and then run for cover as soon someone else is in the vicinity. I would guess the aliens that built the pyramids were much more refined. Who knows, maybe we are getting smarter and the aliens are getting dumber.

Sorry for OTing you're topic. So allow me to try to get back on the topic.

Medina could be looked as a microcosm of the Egyptians as a whole. You have a the good period of Ramose, which happens to be during the reign of Ramesses II. Then as the society starts to deteriorate, it reflects on it's people and you have the likes of Hay and Paneb. Though this wasen't long after Ramesses II, it seems that things in Ramesses time was much more stable and the people seemed to have a much higher moral standard then the people after the time of Ramesses. You could speculate that Ramesses lived so long that people may of REALLY believed that he was a God and things had been so stable, for so long, that they didn't want to rock the boat.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Sorry for OTing you're topic. So allow me to try to get back on the topic.


LOL Thanks, I'm too easily distracted. I was about to play Moderator and jump in with a "let's stay on track" warning, but you made that unnecessary. Wink

Still, it was fun to wander off the intended path for a while.

Quote:
Medina could be looked as a microcosm of the Egyptians as a whole.


This is something about which Egyptologists aren't too certain. As I mentioned in my start-off post for this thread, Deir el-Medina was a government-planned and constructed settlement and, as the evidence seems to suggest, quite different from the usual rambling and sprawling cities of the New Kingdom. Likewise, the residents of the workmen's village were almost certainly more literate, better educated, and of overall higher status than the residents of most other settlements. Just the same, it is without a doubt a treasure trove of information for the Egyptian family and household of this period.

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hen as the society starts to deteriorate, it reflects on it's people and you have the likes of Hay and Paneb. Though this wasen't long after Ramesses II, it seems that things in Ramesses time was much more stable and the people seemed to have a much higher moral standard then the people after the time of Ramesses.


I would agree; the more time went on, the more the cohesion of the workmen's village faltered. It was of course abandoned during the brief interruption of the Amarna Period, and the workmen's village at the Amarna site is another very important settlement for study. It bears many similarities with Deir el-Medina but also marked differences, such as the distinctly less well-educated population of workers there.

Horemheb revived Deir el-Medina after the end of the Amarna Period and life there returned to normal. It was a busy and prosperous place through much of the time of Ramesses II, but we see the problems beginning to take hold shortly thereafter. And we see the cohesion completely crumble by the end of Dynasty 20.

Quote:
You could speculate that Ramesses lived so long that people may of REALLY believed that he was a God and things had been so stable, for so long, that they didn't want to rock the boat.


Ramesses II ruled a prosperous and stable Egypt by most standards, and he remains to me the greatest pharaoh of them all. But we see with other long-reigning kings that a ruler who lasts too long on the throne might do more harm than good. This may have been the case with Pepi II, at the end of Dynasty 6 and the Old Kingdom. He reigned considerably longer than Ramesses II, and Egyptologists have speculated that over those many, many years the government stagnated. Together with other plausible reasons (such as prolonged drought), this may have contributed to the collapse of the Egyptian economy and the government's stability. Ramesses II fared better, to be sure.
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imanobody
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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As I mentioned in my start-off post for this thread, Deir el-Medina was a government-planned and constructed settlement and, as the evidence seems to suggest, quite different from the usual rambling and sprawling cities of the New Kingdom.

Yes, you are right. I guess a better way of saying it would be to say that, if you could compare the people of DEM to modern day people, they would be upper middle class citizens in a time when there wasn't a really big middle class (if there was even one at all). I hate to always make comparisons, but I think it sometimes makes it easier to understand the ancient world, since it's my belief that people haven't changed - we just got more toys. So the people of DEM would be those SUV soccer moms living in upscale communities. Just like you said, they didn't have it nearly as bad as those that had to work in the fields or live in the big cities. But I tend to generaly look at their attitude and ethics, instead of their benefites. Though it's a very safe arguement that people with money can afford ethics Wink , I know that if I had to steal in order to feed myself, I wouldn't even have to think about it.

This is why it is, to me, that it's so telling when you have a group of people that have it so good and don't need to steal, but they do it anyway. Paneb had a great position and obviously made good money, so why was he doing all the things that he was when there was no reason for it. There was a noticeble breakdown in morals after Ramesses died and it kept getting worse as time went on.



Quote:
Ramesses II ruled a prosperous and stable Egypt by most standards, and he remains to me the greatest pharaoh of them all. But we see with other long-reigning kings that a ruler who lasts too long on the throne might do more harm than good.

This is so true. That is why I'm so glad that a President can only serve two terms. No matter how good a President may be, the longer they stay in power, the worse it tends to be after they leave. Not really sure why this is, but it seems to work out that way... most of the time. If I had to guess, it would be because people get used to how that ruler does things, but the world is constantly changing and when a new ruler comes into power, people still want to do things the same way as the old ruler. A nation has to be flexible to stay powerful and this was one of Egypt's biggest weaknesses; they were far too rigid with thier national structure to stay with the times. This is kind've odd, because we see that the Egyptains were some of the most flexible people when it came to allowing foreigners and other cultures into their nation.
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isisinacrisis
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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A nation has to be flexible to stay powerful and this was one of Egypt's biggest weaknesses; they were far too rigid with thier national structure to stay with the times. This is kind've odd, because we see that the Egyptains were some of the most flexible people when it came to allowing foreigners and other cultures into their nation.


But Egypt lasted for about 3000-4000 years, longer than any other civilisation. They had times of conflict and weakness, but the civilisation stayed strong for a pretty long time-and stayed the same. Their art, their beliefs (look at how they reacted to Akhenaten), and so on.

I thought the Egyptian civilisation was very insular and, some say xenophobic. (I don't think they were as xenophobic as some people imply though) Sure they let foreigners in and traded with other nations, but didn't they also refer to foreign lands and people as being 'wretched' or 'foul', or was that only if they had conflicts with such lands? It seems a bit of a paradox...
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

imanobody wrote:
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I hate to always make comparisons, but I think it sometimes makes it easier to understand the ancient world, since it's my belief that people haven't changed - we just got more toys.


This is something I try to avoid in some cases. I tend not to try to compare a people who lived 3000 years ago in a far-away land, to we people who live today. Theirs was a culture we do not even fully understand, and their society was vastly different from ours. The very way they looked at life and death and their environment is quite different from our perspectives of today. Of course they also had dreams and ambitions and loved their families and children, but we are not the same. Hell, the more I study ancient Egypt, the more I think they were more interesting than we are today. Very Happy

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So the people of DEM would be those SUV soccer moms living in upscale communities.


LOL That creates a very entertaining image: while the husbands are away digging the tomb of Pharaoh, all the moms are leaving the village gates to go pick up their kids from school; and then there are all the desert scout meetings, sistrum lessons, temple dancing recitals...

I may have overstated the case of these people's level of status. There were certainly poor people at Deir el-Medina; the gravesites in the Eastern and Western Necropoli demonstrate that (though plenty of beautiful small tombs exit there, too). But the term "middle class" would certainly apply to many of them.

Quote:
Paneb had a great position and obviously made good money, so why was he doing all the things that he was when there was no reason for it.


I don't know that Paneb is representative alone of the breakdown of morals. I think he was personally just an all-around nasty, self-serving, thieving malefactor who made everyone's life miserable. More representative would be the community as a whole and the experiences they have left us, particularly the work strikes and the large numbers who were convicted together of tomb robbing. Every village at any one point in time has at least one nasty arsehole and/or thief, but when you have a whole bunch of them at any one point in time, then you have clear evidence of a breakdown in the moral fabric of that community.

Quote:
This is kind've odd, because we see that the Egyptains were some of the most flexible people when it came to allowing foreigners and other cultures into their nation.


That is one of the odd and contradictory things about the Egyptians. They were a profoundly conservative society and yet allowed significant changes. I suppose it would have to be so--a civilization that's stubbornly static is not likely to last long (certainly not 3000-plus years).

The Egyptians first started to experience large-scale contact with foreigners during the New Kingdom, when they became a true empire. This is when the middle class was established in their culture, the merchants and bureaucrats and envoys who dealt every day with foreign peoples. It remains true that the Egyptians regarded everyone beyond their borders as a "lesser" people, but once a foreigner migrated to Egypt and settled there, he seemed to be embraced and welcomed. The families of Deir el-Medina demonstrate that aptly, with the foreigners who lived and worked and worshiped among them.

isisinacrisis wrote:
Quote:
Sure they let foreigners in and traded with other nations, but didn't they also refer to foreign lands and people as being 'wretched' or 'foul', or was that only if they had conflicts with such lands? It seems a bit of a paradox...


Don't forget "vile." That was one of their very favorite terms. LOL And it's not really a paradox because the Egyptians truly did view outsiders as inferior to them. It was true at all times, not just in periods of conflict--and especially with the Nubians (they seemed to have a special dislike for the Nubians). It's not that the Egyptians were racist because there's no evidence to suggest this; it's more that they were proudly nationalistic and couldn't understand why someone living in Nubia or Libya or Canaan wouldn't simply prefer to be Egyptian.

They welcomed immigrants, and we've seen how so many of the immigrants, especially after having been established in Egypt for a time, became fully Egyptian in nature. Egypt was a big sponge that absorbed all types of foreign peoples and wrung them out as Egyptians. How's that for an analogy? Laughing
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imanobody
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isisinacrisis wrote:
But Egypt lasted for about 3000-4000 years, longer than any other civilisation. They had times of conflict and weakness, but the civilisation stayed strong for a pretty long time-and stayed the same. Their art, their beliefs (look at how they reacted to Akhenaten), and so on.

Well, they were around, but they weren't a super power for a LONG time. Their main accomplishment was that they were able to keep their culture alive while other empire's culture would die out or become irrelevant. No matter how bad it got, they were always able to go back to default culture mode and survive. But what I was really trying to say was that they seemed to have a problem being flexible when it was needed to stay a super-power. Some one pointed out in a topic awhile ago that the egyptains were still using bronze long after everyone else had converted over to iron and this really hurt them. Yes, they hated foreigners, but didn't have a problem with them in Egypt as long as they became Egyptians.

kmt_sesh wrote:
I don't know that Paneb is representative alone of the breakdown of morals. I think he was personally just an all-around nasty, self-serving, thieving malefactor who made everyone's life miserable.

I wasn't really trying to blame the whole breakdown of morals was based on Paneb Laughing Just that he was hired and stayed in power even though it was well known that he was a troublemaker and a crook. People in the village kept saying that Paneb and the Vizier were scheming together. Now you could just say that these are just rumors, but I tend to beleive that rumors exist for a reason. I'm very confident that Paneb would not have a job, or wouldn't last very long, during Ramose's time. Razz

kmt_sesh wrote:
I tend not to try to compare a people who lived 3000 years ago in a far-away land, to we people who live today. Theirs was a culture we do not even fully understand, and their society was vastly different from ours.

True, but it sometimes helps people realize what a person's standing was in their society at that time. I once heard a professor say that a knight owning a suite of armor was the equivalent to a person own their own jet today. Shocked I would have never thought of it that way and it really shows how important a person was to get a suite of armor. But, at the same time, you're right; they don't have much in common with us. Take away the inpaling and cutting off people's nose, and it didn't seem like such a bad place to live. Think
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:12 pm    Post subject: amazone link Reply with quote

thanks for your amazone link in your 29th of january page kmt-sesh just ordered the book--ancient pharoes tomb builders--cost 9pound alot cheaper than 20dollars Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Thanks for your amazone link in your 29th of january page kmt-sesh just ordered the book--ancient pharoes tomb builders--cost 9pound alot cheaper than 20dollars


That's a wonderful book, kennethhirst, and I think you'll enjoy it. Also pay attention to the books anneke recommends. I've bought a number of them and have always been glad for it. Wink

And imanobody, I'm not ignoring your last post. I just don't have much time this evening to type away at ED, so I'll be getting back to this thread as soon as possible. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Some one pointed out in a topic awhile ago that the egyptains were still using bronze long after everyone else had converted over to iron and this really hurt them. Yes, they hated foreigners, but didn't have a problem with them in Egypt as long as they became Egyptians.


That may have been me (or maybe not). I know I've used that very example here at ED before, though. Egypt generally lacked iron deposits but had plentiful access to it through their widespread trading contacts, and yet long after most of the rest of the ancient Near East entered the Iron Age, Egypt was still embracing its bronze. It remained that way till the Greek Period. Prior to that we see it rather infrequently and often merely in an ornamental context, such as that beautiful amuletic dagger found within the wrappings of Tut, at his waist. It's a great example of how the Egyptians used something as decoration or ritual that could've otherwised advanced their military prowress, and thence their ability to conquer or ward off invasion.

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People in the village kept saying that Paneb and the Vizier were scheming together. Now you could just say that these are just rumors, but I tend to beleive that rumors exist for a reason. I'm very confident that Paneb would not have a job, or wouldn't last very long, during Ramose's time.


I think that's a certainty. Paneb was guilty of a lot of annoying little acts of indiscretion, but he was also guilty of numerous serious offenses that would've been the end of most people; he clearly had connections high up, and it helped that this particular vizier was likely every bit as corrupt and twisted as Paneb. Rolling Eyes

Quote:
Take away the inpaling and cutting off people's nose, and it didn't seem like such a bad place to live.


They could be pretty brutal with their criminals, couldn't they? There's still debate over whether burning alive was another sort of capital punishment, and from what I've been reading nowadays, many Egyptologists seem to be leaning away from that--it seems more likely that the bodies of those impaled or beheaded were then burned, to ensure that the offender would have no afterlife.

They would also lop of ears as well as noses--any way to mark a person for the rest of his or her life as a criminal. These as well as execution were for very serious offenses and were not as commonly enforced as nasty beatings. We see that so many lashes and gashes were prescribed for this or that offense. They had it all worked out. Those Egyptians were so efficient. Very Happy
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