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Akhenaten's death
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Karaum
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:44 am    Post subject: YtnAnkh Reply with quote

In view of his name having been found in the Copper Scroll at Qumran, I very much doubt that he did die in Egypt. The Essenes shouldn't have had any knowledge of a King whose name was so thoroughly removed by Djoser kheperw Setepenre (Joshua). The fact that they did, and also copied the lay out of Qumran and alignment of their temple from Akhetaten proves that they must have carried the knowledge from Egypt.
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Gerard
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The copper scroll was studied by John Allegro. The text is about hidden treasures. Where did you learn about Akhenaten mentioned on this document? I saw this TV documentary from R. Feather where he was saying that these gold treasures were at Amarna. Big deal, everybody knows a gold pot was found by in 1930 J.Pendlebury at house T.36.63. All place names on this copper scroll are related with the Juda desert. What on earth the Essenes would have done with treasures ?
I could be wrong, but in the documentation I have there is no such a thing as a temple at Qumran.

Anything about Akhenaten death is speculation until someone find some evidences.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert Feather's book http://www.amazon.com/Copper-Scroll-Decoded-Fabulous-Treasures/dp/0722538022/sr=8-13/qid=1162912977/ref=sr_1_13/002-2700957-3088009?ie=UTF8&s=books
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Queen of the Nile
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure how he died, I think it will always be a mystery. For an Ancient Egyptian pharoah, his lifetime (if it was natural at the time of his death) was not so unexpected, and thus he might have died a natural death. His last years were ones of decline, certainly, but that doesn't mean his death might not have been natural. I tend to think it was, and I don't think he killed himself even if his cherished dream was becoming less and less, and Akhetaten/ Amarna was in decline. His idea of a new religion didn't last that long, and I think he was not killed, for the shift back wasn't radical at first, anyway.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The copper scroll was studied by John Allegro. The text is about hidden treasures. Where did you learn about Akhenaten mentioned on this document?


I'm not terribly knowledgeable on the copper scroll but the treasure to which it refers is thought to be related to items rescued from the Jerusalem Temple after the Roman assault, is it not? I may have seen the same documentary you did, Gerard.

I once saw a most fascinating exhibition on the Dead Sea Scrolls at the Field Museum, in Chicago. They had a small enclosed lab at the back end in which conservators were working on scroll fragments. I can't recall if any of the copper scroll was on display but the exhibit itself was beautiful.

And of course there is no reference to Akhenaten on this scroll. Why would Essenes write anything about a shady ancient Egyptian monarch who reigned in a land far away a thousand years before their own time? Two different times, two entirely different cultures. Confused

No one knows how Akhenaten died, getting back to the subject of this thread. Without a body there is no way to know. Evidence is entirely lacking for any sort of overthrow or assassination, and in any case Akhenaten's body was probably burned or otherwise destroyed not long after his death and burial.
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Robson
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerard wrote:
The copper scroll was studied by John Allegro. The text is about hidden treasures.


Open sesame! Laughing
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Nekht-Ankh
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmt_sesh wrote:
Without a body there is no way to know.

Even if we had a body, it's most likely that we couldn't establish the cause of death. We'd probably only know if there were obvious fatal injuries present. For most mummies the cause of death is unknown.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed, I don't believe that under any circumstances Akenaten's body would have been allowed to survive, nor would it have, because it was the reaction, and the moving away from Amarna, etc. If we had his body who knows, maybe we could tell, or we might have more solid answers.
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to agree with you, Queen of the Nile. I doubt very much if Akhenaten's body could have possibly survived. Seeing the destruction of his tomb, knowing that he was called "The Criminal of Aketaten" and realizing how his religious innovations were so dis-regarded, it's easy to imagine his body, when his tomb was vandalized, being destroyed.
Even if we had the body, at this point I do not believe we would be able to determine his cause of death, perhaps, at the most, like the recent scan of Tut, we would be able to show that he was not physically murdered or harmed bodily. But that proves nothing, really. A more subtle plot may have "done him in"--such as poison. At this point, who knows, really?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris II wrote:
Seeing the destruction of his tomb, knowing that he was called "The Criminal of Aketaten" and realizing how his religious innovations were so dis-regarded,
The main destructions in Amarna royal tomb are from XIX & XX centuries. "enemy of Akhetaten is from Ramsès II year 18 (60 years latter). 'Criminal' is poor translattion. 'ennemy' or 'fallen' are more accurate. Phonetically 'ennemy' and 'to say' were nearly identical, you can check it with translitteration and copte. Akhetaten and Akhenaten are easily confused. If someone read aloud the Mes text, another person may hear 'the say of Akhenaten'. The religious belief of Akhenaten was call 'The teaching' and Akhenaten was the preacher. That part of the Mes text is badly preserved, but we can see that Alhetaten is written twice in a row followed by 'one' which is another word for king. 6 lines above you have year 59 of Horemheb. IMO Mes wanted to attract attention to Horemheb time when his familly was spoiled. Whant I want to explain is that another reading of Mes intentions is mandatory. I agree that at the time of this writting Ramses II was mad at Akhenaten.

In 1912, G.Maspero wrote * « Il semble que les historiens modernes aient eu à cœur d’aggraver les malédictions dont les prêtres thébains avaient chargé sa mémoire ». This is still true to-day. Nicknames given to Akhenaten by egyptologists are just nonsense and are not related to egyptian thought.

What I believe is that Ramses II had a problem, he was already 10 when Ramses I became king. His familly became royal thanks to the favors of Horemheb. They were unknown at Amarna and he felt this was unfair.

Akhenaten had no religious innovations. Aten as a god was started by Thoutmosis IV.

* Histoire des peuples de l’Orient p.248 download on http://gallica.bnf.fr/
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerard wrote:
Akhenaten had no religious innovations. Aten as a god was started by Thoutmosis IV.


I have to disagree with you on this one. Although it's true that Aten was an older god--in fact, I think first mention of him is quite a bit before TIV, it wasn't until Akhenaten that he became the chief diety of ancient Egypt. His elevation to supreme status was insisted upon by Akhenaten, until that time he had remained an obscure, minor diety.

we can see that Alhetaten is written twice in a row followed by 'one' which is another word for king.

I must disagree with you on this one, too. I agree--the name Akhenaten and the city Akhetaten are easily confused. But Amarna had a name in ancient Egypt, and it was not Amarna. In fact, Amarna didn't exist--it was a combination of two Arabic names of small villages. In one of his stele, Akhenaten himself refers to the city he had constructed as Akhetaten--the "City of the Horizon of Aten".
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Gerard
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris II wrote:
we can see that Akhetaten is written twice in a row followed by 'one' which is another word for king.

I must disagree with you on this one, too.

I do not understand on what you disagree. The above is in the Mes text on South wall. See :
ZÄS 39 p.24 A.Moret Un procès de famille...
G. Gaballa, The Memphite Tomb Chapel of Mose p.25, Plates LVI & LXIII
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Gerard
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris II wrote:
it wasn't until Akhenaten that he became the chief diety of ancient Egypt. His elevation to supreme status was insisted upon by Akhenaten, until that time he had remained an obscure, minor diety.
Promoting someone else thoughts does not make the person an innovator. Aten was but obsure under Amenhotep III 'The dazzling Aten'
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Gerard
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forgot to mention W.Murnane Texts from Amarna Period in Egypt p.241 for the Mes (Mose) text.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never heard of the Aten, as a god, given prominence as early as the reign of Djehutymes IV, Confused but the Aten definitely became extremely important during the reign of Amenhotep III. I personally believe that in some ways Akhenaten was following the teachings of his father, but Akhenaten was able to give the Aten a much higher status than Amenhotep III had ever been able to manage.
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