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Tutankhamun or Tutankhamen??
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The Aten
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:24 pm    Post subject: Tutankhamun or Tutankhamen?? Reply with quote

I have seen many books and web pages which say the boy king's name as Tutankhamun, and many that say his name is Tutankhamen, now they both refer to the same person, but why is there a difference in the name?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe the reason for the different spelling 'Tutankhamun' and 'Tutankhamen' is the same reason as many other pharaoh's names. That is, the ancient Egyptians didn't record vowels, so it's mostly an educated guess. Some Egyptologists will write his name with a 'u', some with an 'e', I've even seen his name spelt, Toutankhamon! Neither are more correct or incorrect, it just depends how you translate it.

Examples:
Arrow Ramses, can also be written, Ramesses
Arrow Seti, can be also written, Sethy or Sethos
Arrow Amenhotep can also be written, Imenhotep

Some names are also written in their Greek form, such as, Amenhotep in Greek is Amenophis. And the pharaoh Thutmosis (that's the Greek rendering) in ancient Egyptian is, Djehutymes.

It isn't only names that have numerous spellings, though, most ancient Egyptian words do. Wink

I hope I explained that all right, but I'm sure if not someone else will make a better job. lol.
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The Aten
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow, sorry if this sounds really silly, but u rally are amazing! I wouldn't have thought of that in a million years!! thanks Smile that has always been something that hass nagged my brain, how old are you, ecause to know that you must be older than me, am onli 16.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aye is also written Ay, or visa versa Confused
I prefer to use more colorful names for Aye Razz

Ramesses has a ton of different spellings and, if you look at older books, the names of all the royals have changed a bunch over the years.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Aten wrote:
wow, sorry if this sounds really silly, but u rally are amazing!

Thanks for the compliment, but honestly, I'm not that knowledgeable it just happened to be one of few things I know a little about. Very Happy

The Aten wrote:
how old are you, ecause to know that you must be older than me, am onli 16.

I am a bit older than you, but I don't really think it counts for anything. There are lots of members here that are both younger and older than me, and they all equally know more tham me. Laughing I must admit that I've learnt a lot since I joined this forum. Wink
If you have questions, just ask away there's always someone around here with knowledegable comments to give.
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Nefertiry Merymut
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:13 pm    Post subject: Ay, Aye Captain Reply with quote

I have also seen the name in older books as Eye (believe it or not!)
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The use of the "e," "u," or "o" vowel in the spelling of Amun (it's obvious which one I favor) also has much to do with where one is educated, as I understand it. In Europe the "e" or "o" is more common, though I think the "o" is kind of falling out of usage. I don't see it much.

I don't like the "e" usage in Amun (i.e., "Amen") because people easily tend to confuse it with the Judio-Christian exclamation in prayer. No kidding, at the museum I've been asked before if the Egyptian "Amen" and the Judio-Christian "Amen" have the same source. Rolling Eyes

If you like how oddly names have been spelled, you can't get wrong with Yuya and Tjuya. Or is it Tjuyu? Or is it Thuyu? That's a minor example, but I have Theodore Davis's old book on the discovery of their tomb. That was a long time ago, and he spells this couple's names as Iouiya and Touiyou. Try saying that three times fast!
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What confuses the heck out of me--I have Giles' "The Amarna Age: Egypt" which I consider to be a very high-quality book. Giles is Australian--he refers to Ikhnaton. It wasn't until I read the section in the book on the Royal Tomb that it hit me he was referring to Akhenaten! Embarassed
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In really old literature Akhenaten is sometimes called Khuenaten. My first reaction was: "who?" Laughing until it became clear from context who it was.

And I know what you mean Osiris Very Happy Sometimes you read authors from other countries who transliterate names slightly different (Spanish translations can be challanging that way as well) and you find yourself quite puzzled, until you realize who they must be talking about.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris II wrote:
Giles' "The Amarna Age: Egypt" Giles is Australian--he refers to Ikhnaton.
Ikhnaton was favored by Breasted who was American. You wil find Ekhenaton, Ekhnaton, Ekhenaten, Ekhnaten in various languages. Have fun.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:18 am    Post subject: YmnTwtAnkh Reply with quote

The accepted convention when no vowel is indicated or known is to insert an 'E'. The very fact that most Egyptologists do not do so, and call the God Amun, is that they are trying to cover up the fact that Ymn and the God to whom many address their prayers, is one and the same. Twt is an abbreviation of Dhwt - David. He was born with the name YmnTwtAnkh but changed it to YtnTwtAnkh when his brother Akhenaten began the Aten cult. When Akhenaten was disgraced in the eyes of the hierarchy in Uaset, then he reverted to his birth name.

Similarly his sister or niece, Beketaten, became RE BEKE - Rebecca. The evidence that Twt's father was SalimAmen (Semite version of the Egyptian Ymnhtp) is absolutely overwhelming. Ahmed Osman pointed out most of it in his "Out of Egypt - The roots of Christianity revealed", but I then found several more substantiating facts that really prove that he was the King Solomon.

Twt like Yah and EL was a god associated with the moon and the Sacred Ibis glyph used as an alternative for his name, usually carries the Moon Crescent. The Semites of Lower Egypt would therefore have called him YMN EL ANKH. This is confirmed in the Kebra Nagast which says that Men El Ek and King David were one and the same. The biblical King David however was his gt.gt.grandfather Dhwty-Ms III. The KN also names the mother of Ymen El Ankh/Menelek as an Abyssinian girl named ETEYE AZEB. Twt's mother was indeed Queen ETIYE (commonly referred to as Tiy or Ti) who was the favourite wife of Ymnhtp III/SalimAmen/Solomon. The Azeb would have been Asheb or Sheba. As we go through Egyptian names, syllables in names are frequently reversed. YmnTwtAnkh names Ymnhtp III as his father on a memorial at Soleb, and a lock of Etiye's hair was found in a cofinette in Twt's tomb.

One of Twt's Five Names was RE HPRW NEB. This is in a cartouche on his golden shrine, and can be checked in many other sources. Robert Feather suggested that HPR was the origin of the word HEBREW. In the cartouche there are three plural strokes after the HPR (SCARAB) glyph. Thus this could be read as LORD GOD OF THE HEPREWS. In fact we have some good confirmation of this, for St.Ambrose (late 4th century AD) referred many times to Jesus as "The Good SCARABaeus". Also in a column of glyphs on his shrine I found glyphs reading HRWN MSS YY. Y was often shortened to the single letter to make the glyphs look balanced. By repeating it, it becomes plural. Another way of showing the plural was by using the letter 'W', thus giving us YahW - Yahweh. But whatever - the pronunciation might have sounded like AARON MOSES YAHWEH. (The S following the three foxtail glyph - MS is not normally pronounced, but some Semites may not have known that when they read the glyphs.)

We know from 1 Kings 10:28/29 that Solomon had to be an Egyptian King, since no minor chieftain of another country could have dictated the export of chariots out of Egypt - a bit like Cuba telling the USA who they could send nuclear rockets to. We also find in 1 Kings 11:11/13 an account of what actually is known to have happened. Twt was the last of the family line, and the kingdom did then go to the official, Ay (Ahijah).

YmnTwtAnkh would also have been seen by Egyptians as the Living God, and his Evercoming Son IUSU - in fact the Holy Trinity is painted on one wall of his tomb. Iusu became known to the Greeks both as Horus and Iesous (Jesus). The Annunciation, Conception, Birth and Adoration of the Holy Child are shown in four scenes on a wall in Ymnhtp III's temple at Luxor.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings, Karaum. You'll find Egyptian Dreams to be mostly a board that favors discussion based on the orthodox views of historical study, as achieved by hundreds of years of careful scholarship in the fields of archaeology, ethno-archaeology, philology, linguistics, anthropology, paleopathology, and others. To that end I am motivated to address your post and point out some inconsistencies in the material provided by your sources, who appear to lack a fundamental understanding of ancient Egypt and its language, among other things.

To begin with, the archaeological record clearly demonstrates that at the time of Tutankhamun (around 1333 BCE), the ancient Hebrews were probably not yet even a notable chiefdom. They were a semi-nomadic tribe of herdsmen occupying the highlands of what is today Israel. Hundreds of years would pass before their society evolved into anything even resembling a kingdom.

Yes, the ancient Egyptian language belonged to the Semitic family, but was more Afro-Semitic, a language that mixed elements of the Semitic tongues and those of other North African peoples. And that's about as much of a similarity as there is between ancient Egyptian and ancient Hebrew. It would be like calling English and Dutch the same langauge: both are of the Germanic linguistic family, but unless a person raised with the English language had spent years studying Dutch as well, he's not too likely to understand what someone from the Netherlands is saying. The Semitic language family is huge and contains many different tongues--related elementally but quite varied in syntax, grammar, phonetics, and vocabulary. It most likely originated in North Africa and eventually spread north and east, into Syro-Palestine.

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The accepted convention when no vowel is indicated or known is to insert an 'E'. The very fact that most Egyptologists do not do so, and call the God Amun, is that they are trying to cover up the fact that Ymn and the God to whom many address their prayers, is one and the same.


You're correct about the "e" convention, of course. We cannot know for certain what many ancient Egyptian words sounded like, so we insert a neutral "e" to help flesh out many words. But there is no language so loaded with such flat sounds, and when we attempt to speak ancient Egyptian to the extent to which we are able, it tends to sound artificial. To that end linguists dressed up certain words, especially proper nouns, with a greater variety of vowels to help the spoken version sound smoother to us. And not everyone follows the same conventions; this is why it is common to write the name imn as Amun, Amon, or Amen. It also depends on where in the world one studies, because different countries tend to follow established conventions.

At the time of Tutankhamun it is possible that the Hebraic god Yahweh was rising in their worship in the highlands of ancient Israel, but there is no connection whatsoever between Amun and Yahweh. It's similar to the confusion some Christian people have with the name Amun when it's spelled "Amen." They see it as the same "Amen" they use in their prayers and jump to the conclusion that it must mean there's a significant connection. There isn't, of course. The word "Amen" as said commonly in prayers comes from the Tiberian Hebrew term that means "So be it!", which is simply a declaration of affirmation. The ancient Egyptian word imn means "hidden" and the god, regarded as the utmost mysterious to the Egyptians, took on that name in the meaning of "The Hidden One." It simply brings us back to the variety of spellings: Amun, Amon, or Amen (the confusion over which leads me to favor "Amun" myself).

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Twt is an abbreviation of Dhwt - David. He was born with the name YmnTwtAnkh but changed it to YtnTwtAnkh when his brother Akhenaten began the Aten cult.


Whether Akhenaten was the father of Tutankhamun or the brother is still a lively debate unto itself, and not of issue here. But the ancient Egyptian word twt means "image" or "likeness." It further caries magico-religious connotations but that's another matter. It is of basic historical understanding that the boy-king was born under the name Tutankhaten: twt meaning "image," ankh meaning "life" or "living," and itn meaning "Aten" (i.e., sun disk). The name means "Living Image of [the] Aten." After the death of Akhenaten and the intermediary Smenkhkare, Tut took the throne at about the age of nine. The worship of the Aten became anathema, and within several years the powers behind the throne had the boy-king change his name to Tutankhamun (twtankhimn), "Living Image of Amun." Amun was the great state god of the New Kingdom whose worship Akhenaten tried to eliminate, but who came back to popular veneration in Tut's time. I'm pretty certain the Hebraic name David means "beloved," but aside from my uncertainty there, the Egyptian word twt and the Jewish name David have no connections.

Quote:
Similarly his sister or niece, Beketaten, became RE BEKE - Rebecca.


Again, the Egyptian name Bekataten and the Jewish name Rebecca have no relation. The closest you can come is the ancient Hebrew weight called the "bekah," but it's certainly not a name.

Quote:
The evidence that Twt's father was SalimAmen (Semite version of the Egyptian Ymnhtp) is absolutely overwhelming.


Your source (Ahmed Osman) probably knows the flimsiness of this argument, but it's a good example of a fringe researcher twisting basic facts to suit his argument. We can return to the Hebraic "Amen" and the Egyptian imn, two words that may have sounded alike but which have no connection. Amunhotep III was fully Egyptian and had no discernible connection to the Canaanites occupying Syro-Palestine at this time. The parentage and ancestry of Amunhotep III is well understood. And the name imnhtp simply means "Amun is satisfied." It was a very common Egyptian name, especially in the New Kingdom. The root htp can be found in many Egyptian names throughout the dynastic period.

And the parentage of Tutankhamun is not firmly fixed. Some Egyptologists today still do believe Amunhotep III to have been his father, but by far most scholars believe the father to have been Akhenaten.

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Twt like Yah and EL was a god associated with the moon and the Sacred Ibis glyph used as an alternative for his name, usually carries the Moon Crescent. The Semites of Lower Egypt would therefore have called him YMN EL ANKH.


El was the Canaanite creator deity and, to my knowledge, was never worshiped by the Egyptians, though they did absorb other Canaanite deities into their broad religion. El was probably the impetus for the God of the Old Testament, as the Hebraic herdsmen were forming into a society (the Bible has many references to El).

You may be thinking of the Egyptian god Thoth, which is the Greek version of the ancient Egyptian djhwty ("Djehuty"), who was indeed associated with the moon, among other things (e.g., writing, magic). He's usually depicted as an ibis but also as a baboon. In ancient Egyptian twt and djhwty have no linguistic relationship.

On a final note for this one, it's quite altogether unlikely the people residing in northern Egypt would've referred to the boy-king as "YMN EL ANKH." The ancient Egyptian language did not even contain the letter "L." "YMN EL ANKH" is not an Egyptian name or word.

Quote:
One of Twt's Five Names was RE HPRW NEB. This is in a cartouche on his golden shrine, and can be checked in many other sources. Robert Feather suggested that HPR was the origin of the word HEBREW. In the cartouche there are three plural strokes after the HPR (SCARAB) glyph. Thus this could be read as LORD GOD OF THE HEPREWS.


I'm not familiar with Robert Feather, but if he's the source for this information, he's just as culpable as Ahmed Osman in twisting basic facts. The name to which you refer is Nebkheprure (nbkhprwr'), Tut's prenomen or throne name. It is the name by which almost all common Egyptians and foreigners would've known the boy-king (Tutankhamun being his personal name and not used except by family, close friends, or trusted advisors). The khpr root in the name (your "HPR"), represented in hieroglyphs by the scarab beetle, means "to manifest" or "to create" (the scarab was a powerful symbol of regineration and was connected to the solar god Re). The name nbkhprwr' means "The lordly manifestations of Re" or "The many manifestations of Re."

The word "Hebrew" is a Western term. An origin of this word is possibly 'Ivrim or Ibrim, basically referencing the Hebrew peoples as the descendants of the patriarch Eber. Again, it is unrelated to the ancient Egyptian tongue.

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s on his shrine I found glyphs reading HRWN MSS YY. Y was often shortened to the single letter to make the glyphs look balanced. By repeating it, it becomes plural.


I'm not sure to which shrine you're referring: Tut had many in his tomb. Would it perchance be this one? If so let me know because I've translated all of the inscriptions on it (it's one of the objects on display in the current Tut exhibition in Chicago). Your "HRWN MSS YY" is a bit confusing so I'd like to see the glyphs for myself. "Moses" is certainly an Egyptian-sounding name, but it's unlikely an Egyptian or someone raised in Egypt would ever have been called this because mss simply means "born of" or can be taken to mean "child of." It is a common element in ancient Egyptian names such as Tuthmosis (djhwtyms), which means "born of Djehuty" (i.e., Thoth); or r'mss, which means "born of Re."

In any case it's not as simple as doubling glyphs in ancient Egyptian to produce plurals. The suffix "w" could do the job, but a pair of glyphs can mean all sorts of things, and usually not a plural (that was indicated by three or more glyphs).

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YmnTwtAnkh would also have been seen by Egyptians as the Living God, and his Evercoming Son IUSU - in fact the Holy Trinity is painted on one wall of his tomb. Iusu became known to the Greeks both as Horus and Iesous (Jesus). The Annunciation, Conception, Birth and Adoration of the Holy Child are shown in four scenes on a wall in Ymnhtp III's temple at Luxor.


Your starting to delve into the development of Christianity here, which doesn't make since. Christianity began as a minor Jewish sect based upon the teachings of Jesus, of course...and in the time of the boy-king, Jesus would not be born for another 1,300 years.

I see I've turned into quite the nit-picker. I don't mean to be harsh but I've been studying ancient Egypt for 20 years and I staunchly stand behind orthodox scholarship. The evidence tells us what we need to know. These sources you've been reading are disregarding established fact, and quite zealously at that.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmt_sesh wrote:
and in the time of the boy-king, Jesus would not be born for another 1,300 years.



Of course if you disconsider cronology revisionists...
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Of course if you disconsider cronology revisionists...


LOL Yes, discount them. People will go to great lengths to warp known history so their fringe arguments will work. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obviously my studies have been far wider and in greater depth.

Suggest you begin by reading Gerald Massey's "Ancent Egypt - Light of the World" (1907). Massey devoted his entire career to studying Egypt, and you just cannot dismiss him because he doesn't conform to religious archaeologists findings.

Tom Harpur, ex Anglican Minister changed his whole beliefs after researching Massey and Kuhn. Read his book, "The Pagan Christ"
I have found errors in Ralph Ellis's works. But again there are facts there that should not be dismissed without further checking and research. These definitely place the Hyksos and Semite Kings era back to at least the 15th Dynasty. - "Tempest & Exodus" and "Jesus Last of the Pharaohs".

You should also read Graham Phillips "Act of God", and Maurice Cotterell's "The Tutankhamun Prophecies". Again watch out for errors - but do at least give them some thought.

You must surely have read Osman's books. I see that they are now making a film "Moses and Nefertiti" based on his works.

I only deal in truth and facts, and check out anything I find to the finest detail. Please do the same.
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