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Meketaten
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I dont believe there was any dramatic physical deformity afflicting Akhenaten, Nefertiti, their daughters - they can't all have Marfans surely. Or were they all uglyfied to compensate for Akhenatens deformities? Really I think it was simply a change in art form. The beautiful bust of Nefertiti shows none of the elongated charateristics she is shown with in reliefs. But until or if ever, the remains of Akhenaten are ever found, we won't know for sure.

Quote:
I have also read reports that he may have had scoliosis

Regarding Tutankamun btw - Yes I also read that this may be the reason for the number of canes found in his tomb. Although scoliosis can be congential, 80% of cases have no known cause (see reference).
Speculating now - so if one or both foetusses did in fact have this affliction, perhaps this again indicates the close family relationship between Tutankamun and Ankhesenamun.

List of symptoms- note reference to the rib cage and waist, could make embalming a bit trickier
Shoulders are different heights – one shoulder blade is more prominent than the other
Head is not centered directly above the pelvis
Appearance of a raised, prominent hip
Rib cages are at different heights
Uneven waist
Changes in look or texture of skin overlying the spine (dimples, hairy patches, color changes)
Leaning of entire body to one side

Ref: http://www.iscoliosis.com/causes.html
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anneke
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was just listing the theories about Akhenaten. I don't think he was deformed either. There are plenty of scenes that show him normal. Most of the existing statues (if not all) of the daughters don't show abnormalities.
They do have the elongated skull, but so does one of my nieces. Laughing

The only statues that I know about that are strange are large Osiris (Osiride?) figures from the facade of a temple. And people have pointed out that they look weird to us, because we look at them "face-on". They were very large statues and were meant to be gazed up at. From their "natural perspective" they would not have looked strange.

ALways reminds me of the statue of David. Supposedly, the one hand is much larger than the other, because it is so high up. The fore-shortening makes everything look just perfect to us when looking at it.

Interesting that you mention the symptoms of scoliosis and the canes.
Tutankhamen is often depicted with a cane. There's one inscription of Smenkhare, that also shows him with a cane. They are the only two pharaohs that are shown with such a weekness - that I know off. (And if you don't believe in the existence of Smenkhare, then Tut is the only one.)

There is one other pharaoh I know of with a deformity: Siptah had a club-foot. He was one of the pharaohs of the latter part of the 19th dynasty. (Descendant of Ramses II) But this club-foot is not evident from inscriptions. I believe this came as a total surprise when they unwrapped his mummy.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
I thought that people were trying to argue that Akenaten had either Marfan's Syndrome or Frohlich's disease.
One of them (I forget which) leaves people sterile, so considering all his children that seems unlikely.


Some say indeed Froelich's Syndrome, others call it Marfan's Syndrome. It's an endocrine disorder found mots commonly in men.

Maybe this theory is quite odd, because an earlier theory said that Akhenaten was in fact a woman disguised as a man, this theory was however abandoned in 1988.

An interesting article about this via the next link:

http://www.heptune.com/Marfans.html
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2004 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't think he was deformed either

Sorry I truely didnt mean my post to sound directed at you. I was really only commenting on the theories, but it didn't come across like that in my post - I didn't mean to sound quite so blunt. Sad

Quote:
Siptah had a club-foot.

Funny you mention him since I was just reading that! Seems it indicates he had polio. Poor guy. Takes all the romance out of wanting to live in his era!
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2004 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't know after all! If I had a time machine I would have liked to go to the New Kingdom (18th or 19th Dynasty). Wink
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2004 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Sorry I truely didnt mean my post to sound directed at you. I was really only commenting on the theories, but it didn't come across like that in my post - I didn't mean to sound quite so blunt.


Very Happy I didn't take it that way. I just wanted to say I agreed with you.

Back to Tut's parents: There are a couple of inscriptions mentioned in Murnane's book ("Texts from the Amarna Period in Egypt).

There are "renewal inscriptions" for Amenhotep III from the Luxor Temple.
On the great collonade there's text accompanying Tutankhamen as he issues from the palace, and the label describes him as "renewing the monument of his father, the King of Upper and Lower Egypt Nebmaatre (=Amenhotep III)"

It is still in dispute whether Tut is literally claiming Amenhotep III as his father, or if the term more metaphorically means ancestor.


There are also lion satues from Soleb in Nubia. Here again we have an inscription:
Quote:
".... Tutankhamun Ruler of Upper Egyptian Heliopolis, who renewed the monument of his father, the King of Upper and Lower Egypt Lord of the Two Lands Nebmaatre, image of Re, Son of Re, Amenhotep Ruler of Thebes:...."


On a wooden handle of an instrument used in making astronomical sightings we have:
[quote]".... Tutankhamun Ruler of Upper Egyptian Heliopolis, who renewed the monument of his forefather, the King of Upper and Lower Egypt Lord of the Two Lands Menkheprure, the Lord of Crowns Thutmose IV...."

Thutmose IV is the father of Amenhotep III, and Tut is claiming to be a direct descendant of him too. As the author mentions: too bad the term forefather is rather vague.

More intriguing than that even are two blocks from the Temple of Tutankhamun in Thebes, where now Aye is claiming a relationship with Tutankhamen:
Quote:
... he (=Aye) made as this monument for his son, the Good God, Lord of the Two Lands, Lord who performs the ritual, King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Nebkheperure (=Tutankhamen)..


There are at least two of these inscriptions and they date from the reign of Aye. Here son probably doesn't mean son in the father/son way, but may assert some tutor/pupil relationship??
Aye may of course be Ankhesenamun's grand-father, so in that sense he may have functioned as Tut's grand-father also.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2004 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found the folowing (Tour Egypt):

"Tutankhamun was not given this name at birth, but rather Tutankhaten (meaning "Living Image of the Aten"), squarely placing him in the line of pharaohs following Akhenaten, the heretic pharaoh, who was most likely his father. His mother was probably Kiya, though this too is a question."

And further in the article:

"At the end of Akhenaten's reign, Ay and Horemheb, both senior members of that kings court, probably came to the realization that the heresy of their king could not continue. Upon the death of Akhenaten and Smenkhare, they had the young king - who was nine years old - crowned in the old secular capital of Memphis. And since the young pharaoh had no living female relatives old enough, he was probably under the care of Ay or Horemheb or both, who would have actually been the factual ruler of Egypt."

This could be ther relationship with Ay and Horemheb that is referred to. They were perhaps in fact a kins of "stepfather" to the young king. And also "perhaps" they liked the job of "king" so much they murdered the young pharaoh in the process (but that's just a guess of mine)!
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2004 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mean a KIND of stepfather! Sorry!
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2004 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I didn't take it that way. I just wanted to say I agreed with you.

Oh thats cool, its all good then Very Happy

Quote:
There are at least two of these inscriptions and they date from the reign of Aye. Here son probably doesn't mean son in the father/son way, but may assert some tutor/pupil relationship??

Yeah, this is what we thought the title Ay had as 'Divine Father' might refer to, a mentor type of role. I wonder if Ay had a similar role in the upbringing of Smenkhare?
Quote:
Don't know after all! If I had a time machine I would have liked to go to the New Kingdom (18th or 19th Dynasty).

A time machine would be cool, absolutely Laughing Then if I need a dentist or a decent coffee - beam me back Scotty, to nowadays!
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Yves Van Herp
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sesen wrote:
Quote:
I didn't take it that way. I just wanted to say I agreed with you.

Oh thats cool, its all good then Very Happy

Quote:
There are at least two of these inscriptions and they date from the reign of Aye. Here son probably doesn't mean son in the father/son way, but may assert some tutor/pupil relationship??

Yeah, this is what we thought the title Ay had as 'Divine Father' might refer to, a mentor type of role. I wonder if Ay had a similar role in the upbringing of Smenkhare?
Quote:
Don't know after all! If I had a time machine I would have liked to go to the New Kingdom (18th or 19th Dynasty).

A time machine would be cool, absolutely Laughing Then if I need a dentist or a decent coffee - beam me back Scotty, to nowadays!


I'll do Captain Kirk! Laughing
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Yeah, this is what we thought the title Ay had as 'Divine Father' might refer to, a mentor type of role. I wonder if Ay had a similar role in the upbringing of Smenkhare?


I never thought about that. You would kinda expect that to be true. Unless Akhenaten decided to be much more involved. There's so little information about this King though, that it will be difficult to figure out.

I only know of one real inscription of him, and that scene has been deteriorating to the point that they have to rely on old copies made in the 19th century.

I also wonder how much influence Nefertiti had on their upbringing. I remember something about reading that Tutankhamun grew up in the North Palace at Akhet-Aten. This was also a primary residence of Nefertiti. She took on the role of co-regent, and some say even that of pharaoh. So she may have been involved with the training of both Princes (Tut and Smenkhare).
Smenkhare did marry Princess/Queen Meritaten. I wonder where they lived? Same North Palace?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Quote:
Yeah, this is what we thought the title Ay had as 'Divine Father' might refer to, a mentor type of role. I wonder if Ay had a similar role in the upbringing of Smenkhare?


I never thought about that. You would kinda expect that to be true. Unless Akhenaten decided to be much more involved. There's so little information about this King though, that it will be difficult to figure out.

I only know of one real inscription of him, and that scene has been deteriorating to the point that they have to rely on old copies made in the 19th century.

I also wonder how much influence Nefertiti had on their upbringing. I remember something about reading that Tutankhamun grew up in the North Palace at Akhet-Aten. This was also a primary residence of Nefertiti. She took on the role of co-regent, and some say even that of pharaoh. So she may have been involved with the training of both Princes (Tut and Smenkhare).
Smenkhare did marry Princess/Queen Meritaten. I wonder where they lived? Same North Palace?


I always read that women were considered to "educate" their children, but in the Royal family this job was usually done by an "educated slave".
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just been reading a little on education, so this is from The Splendour that was Egypt, Margaret A Murrey:
"The subjects taught at school was chiefly reading, writing and arithmetic. The boys were trained to be clerks in government offices, priests or artists. Each department of the government had its own school, to which the members of that department had the right to send their sons, so in time this son may join the office. He could strike out on his own in a new profession, but usually he would follow his father where the paternal influence would be of greater help to him.
Royal children were taught by private tutors, along with the children of non royal nobles, in the private apartments of the royal harim. When they got older the young princes were put to some profession and were not allowed to be idle. All the pharaohs had a priestly training, and therefore were highly educated according to the standards of the time. They were great travellers also, and had a considerable knowlege of other countries besides their own. The queens were certainly able to read and write, and appear to have been well educated."

Nefertiti is shown to be participating in religous rites, she must have had the benefit of some form of education. The kings don't seem to have been involved directly in early education of young ones - although Akhenaten could be the exception. My guess for later education would be Ay as Divine Father for Smenkhare, if this title does refer to a mentor role. Smenkhare, I've read, had a palace at Akhetaten, but there is no mention of one for Tutankamun - too young at the time perhaps?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2004 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Smenkhare, I've read, had a palace at Akhetaten, but there is no mention of one for Tutankamun - too young at the time perhaps?


I can't remember where I read it, but I though that Tutankhaten lived at the North Palace. That would have put him near Nefertiti I think.

There's an artice in one of the Amarna Letters publications that mentions an inscription of a young man practicing his bow and arrow. There is some god that is sometimes depicted this way, but due to the lack of representations of gods during that period, this may actually be one of the only known representations of Tutankkhamen as a young Prince.

I will have to look at the scene again, but I believe this boy is shown standing in a chariot, shooting an arrow.
Chariot racing, and those kind of activities seem to have been a favorite passtime from that period. There are scenes in tombs of nobles showing the royal family driving their chariots.
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