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Why did Akhenaten erase his fathers memory?
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ImageOfAten
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amenhotep III could have taken control of Amun instead of establishing a new cult but, it is possible that his faith did not rest with Amun. Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brunhilde wrote:
I do say it's better to have healthy trade & giving gifts than hoarding it all for yourself. Or else you may find yourself trading blows & giving lives!


Therein lies the shortsightedness of Akhenaten. Egypt had access to lots of gold which all the others wanted. But Egpyt had no gems, no wood, no horses and no silver and perhaps just as important, a lack of high grade copper (kind of important in the Bronze Age).

By alienating some of the key allies in the area and not working to maintain the balance of power beneficical to it, Akhenaten put the country at risk in terms of strategic resources.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everyone focuses way to much on finding the errors of Akhenaten's rule but rarely does someone focus on the positive aspects!! Oh why?!
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...Because his blunders were monumental and his accomplishments quite overshadowed by them.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That all depends upon how one interprets things Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something I've been thinking about is that it might not have been all bad intentions to cover over the former Pharoah's reign with your own. The usurpation might have beebn a way of saying, "You remember what he did? Well that stuff still stands and it lives on in me. The same rules apply, so don't go thinking that just because Dad's gone doesn't mean you can ignore his greatness".

Am I crazy about that?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

xman wrote:
Something I've been thinking about is that it might not have been all bad intentions to cover over the former Pharoah's reign with your own.
I think that may have been it in some cases. A way of showing a degree of continuity - I believe the same as him. It was also faster and cheap to just erase the other guy's name and chisel in your own.

If a big part of monuments and temples was to show the gods you were on the job and working to please them, and the other guy is dead, then its better for all involved if the favor of the gods flows to the current king. Of course it assumes that the gods dont see you erasing your father's name off them.

Certain excising seem personally directed - most notably Hatshepsut and Akhenaton. But even then, there was room for certain considerations. In at least one case Horemheb erased Akhenaten from a classic Armana style stele and had himself added - complete with arms of the Aten bringing life to him.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although Hatchepsut's name was only erased where she was mentioned as Pharoh- her name still exists where she is mentioned as queen consort- this is not a personal attack just a way of keeping the "natural order" the AE belived only a man should rule.

What do you guy's think of Amenhotep III boat called "the dazzling aton" i think, apparently it was covered in gold and that massive lake at Amenhotep's palace was so queen Tiye could sail on it! LOL Egyptian royalty was so extravagant- even when they had the nile they built a massive lake just to be luxurious!
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:07 am    Post subject: Money?Are you serious! Reply with quote

You all seem to forget the aten gained two caratouches like a pharoh-maybe the defied amenhotep3 idea is more to the point- no other god has this!

Mayb akhenaten thought his father who was defied in life became one with the aten and that is why he worshipped it? You know how only the royal family recives the ankh or "life" from the aten-i wondered why only they did and no one else and it seems clear to me because of this theory:

quote
"the artistic changes which occurred at the end of Amenhotep III's reign influenced his son Akhenaten's own artistic innovations, which took a similar form, shifting from a traditional style to an exaggerated style that emphasized his role as the sun god's firstborn, Shu (who is both male and female in one body).It is quite suggestive that Amenhotep III and Akhenaten took on the identities of father/son deities, Atum-Re and Shu, who in Egyptian mythology are co-dependent on each other (and actually cannot exist without each other). If the artistic changes of the father and son occurred simultaneously, Akhenaten's famous cult of the Aten may have been an integral part of the deification program of Amenhotep III. This model suggests that the joint rule of father and son was perhaps theologically dictated by Amenhotep's deification, patterned after the unique relationship of the creator god Atum-Re (= the sun/Aten/Amenhotep III) and his firstborn child, Shu (= sunbeams/air/ Akhenaten), father/son deities who, according to ancient Egyptian Coffin Texts, recreate each other at dawn each day. It is interesting to note that the costumes of Queen Tiye from this time depict her in the role of the goddess Hathor, divine consort of Re, while Akhenaten's wife Nefertiti takes on the attributes of Tefnut, twin sister/wife of Akhenaten/Shu. The evidence suggests that Amenhotep's whole family played specific divine roles in his deification program, taking on the attributes of the creator god's divine family."unquote

This seems to explain why akhenaten's early "osiride" statues of himslef show him with big hips and a different "look" it's because shu was a male/female deity and this was akhenaten in the "shu" form- he obviously beleived this is how he would end up when he dies- so why do u all concentrate on money when you seem to be missing the major point!

Why would akhenaten portray himslef in the shu form, why would only the royals get life from the aten, why does the aten get two caratouches like a pharoh(hint hint amenhotep3) if it was all about some money? It was about Akhenaten beleiving he was somehow associated with Shu( and thus a living god) and he needed his father as the aten to give him life because shu needed his father atum re to survive-this explains the reason ankh's are only given to the royal family.

Typical of people to only concentrate on money-- we are dealing with a very superstitious and magic beleiving society- i'm sure money didn't have much to do with it.
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Chrismackint
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me clarify something

Mayb akhenaten thought his father who was defied in life became one with the aten when he(amenhotep 3) died, and that is why he worshipped it? You know how only the royal family recives the ankh or "life" from the aten-i wondered why only they did and no one else and it seems clear to me because of this theory of shu needing atum re to survive
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

plus the aten only get's two caratouches after amenhotep3's death suggesting to me akhenaten beleived his father had become atum re and as shu he was co dependent of his father and thus is why he worshipped it.

Also the sun disk(visible light) attributes to shu- mayb this has something seperate to do with Akhenaten and his association as shu? Mayb the reason for the aten in it's two froms? I think someone mentioned something about the aten's two froms earlier can't remember who but what do u think?
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


quote"Rendering of the colossal statues of Amenhotep IV and their placement in the temple of Gam-pa-Aten in Thebes, as illustrated in Redford, Akhenaten, The Heretic King. Each colossus stands before a square pillar. The pillars uphold a portico that protects the decorated enclosure walls of the temple court, which like the colossi themselves were originally brightly painted." unquote

The way these statues are set up seems significant-akhenaten seems to beleive he was somehow connceted to the sun and moon. Or maybe they represent him during the night and day.

This is also evident of some moon association-the baboons(lunar symbol) with that khat Akhenaten's wearing-is this someone who's main concern is money. Sure politics and religion were identical in the AE mindset but this seems to be something deeper than just politics.





Just out of interest i noticed that in Akhenaten's "osiride" statues of him associated with shu, even the nemes has female associations, for we can see the bottom portion is in the form of the tripartite wig, usually only worm by women,stressing his association. As this statue shows Akhenaten wearing the nemes/tripartite then it must be associating him with solar deities as the nemes/tripartite represents solar, thus sunbeams=shu.

This is evidence he really beleived in his shu association and therefore this is about more than wealth.The rammesides allowed the temple of amun to keep all it's wealth and they were still able to live extravagantly and build massive building projects, so why do we think Akhenaten closed the amun temple and took the wealth away just because he wanted more money to spend? The rammesides proved the wealth the amun temple accumulated doesn't retard how extravagant a ruler wished to be!(I do know money didn't exist during this time in egyptian history so when i say money i just mean the wealth from the crops,livestock etc)



seems to begin as nemes and then go tripartite wig


Nefertiti tripartite wig






Here we can see the lunar association as Akhenaten is wearing khat



What is this thing on top of the solar statues?!-only the crowns appear on the lunar ones-it's like amuns solar plumes but bent. It is very wide and solid, not like the ones appearing on small wodden statues which seem flimsy. Maybe it's been represented here more realistically, as if how it was in real life-must have been a strain to wear-probably shows what a triple atef would have been like...





flimsy on small models see?


What do you think of this? The one with akhenaten and the baboons signifys something, i read somewhere, but now i've forgotten it's religious meaning.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry about my posts above i was rabbiting on a bit hopefully a moderator will delete them

Anyway earlier we were talking about AIII role in the amarna period and how he may have had more influence than previously thought.... well here are some pictures of his palace interior and they show all the sighns of life that akhenaten's palace has...

http://www.insecula.com/us/oeuvre/photo_ME0000027384.html

This article is interesting it mentions a plaster mask of a king found at amarna too old to be tutankhamun or semenkhare and does not resemble Akhenaten and also the stela at the bottom of the page is incredible!
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i forgot to post the second article sorry!

http://www.deepfly.org/Amunhatpi2.html
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