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The Pay Lands
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, imanobody. I have a couple of different Egypt dictionaries like it but not that one. And the ones I own do not make reference to Pay Lands. You're just throwing stumpers our way. Razz
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imanobody
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's what got me thinking; it's not mentioned in any of my other books and I have a lot (thanks to the bookfair). So, I'm wondering, if it could be an error by the author or if something was interpreted wrong. But, if it was wrong, why was the mistake in the reprint? I think after five years someone would've sent a message to them saying that it was incorrect.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

imanobody wrote:
That's what got me thinking; it's not mentioned in any of my other books and I have a lot (thanks to the bookfair). So, I'm wondering, if it could be an error by the author or if something was interpreted wrong.
I doubt that. I've not seen much in writing about the Pay Lands, but have seen them discussed elsewhere so I dont think the term is an error (if I take your meaning right). And somewhere along the line it got implanted that they were the same as Aaru.

Obscure to be sure...
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From a far more obscure discussion forum than this one. I got in "sideways" so redacted the poster names:

1.
Hi all,

I'm curious about how the rxyt fit with the pA.t. Does anyone know if the pA.t people have been connected with the "Pay lands" that are mentioned as the place of creation in the Edfu texts? I've read Reymond's book and I've also read a long, very critical review of it, so I don't what is accepted or not at this point. The Pay lands sound swampy or possibly as if a coastal area were reached after a sea voyage, if one wants to speculated about the stories as tribal history.

2.
I haven't seen a connection made between the pat (it's a -- ayin not Aleph -- BTW) and the pay-lands. Wb. does translate pay as shore or bank. It's an interesting idea. I'm not at all convinced the pat are or were a distinct ethnic group. (Nibbi doesn't believe much in sea voyages.) She maintains a Libyan affinity for the rxyt, which could be reconciled with the earliest inscribed monuments. Now who were those Libyans? Were the Libyans of that time homogeneous? I doubt it. Were some of them already proto-Berbers? Were some of them Indo-Europeans??

Then there's Schulman's idea that the Narmer palette is actually an example of the later repeated scene of the Pharaoh vanquishing a Libyan chief and his sons, and of course Libya is specified on a seal of Narmer found by Dreyer at Abydos. But to make things even more interesting, Schulman develops the idea that the earliest Egyptian concept of "Libya" included Palestine.

3.
If the people are written with an ayin not an aleph, maybe it won't work...the pay lands are written with an A in Faulkner (87). They are the primeval lands. I was thinking maybe they refered to the historical homeland of someone who arrived in Egypt, but if the words aren't connected, I guess it won't. I thought the Tekenu were Libyans. Bourghouts give a reference to Seth as lord of the rxyt...was he worshipped in what we think of as Libyan areas? Could Libyans be Minoans or is that too far out for Shulman?

Bourghouts refers to the Onomasticon for more on the rxyt, and since that has just arrived, I need to read that. I have also dug out: Serrano, Jose M. "Origin and basic meaning of the word Hnmmt (the so-called "sun-folk") Studien zur Altägyptischen Kultur Volume 27, 2000, 353-368 to see what he says about the sun-folk and compare with Nibbi's DE article. When I get through these, I'll write more.

4.
I've looked through Gardiner's article, but I want to read it again. I'm not sure I completely agree with him on the pat people. He sees them as nobles, royals, but maybe this is not completely correct. If they have something to do with the creation stories about the Pay lands, may be they are descended from the first cultivators of Egypt? Could they be the AE equivalent of the DAR? smile

The pat seem to be linked with Geb and Osiris (and maybe Horus?). Could these terms for people be the names of religious groups or ethnic groups that were originally linked with a religion? In that case if Seth does have a connection with the rxyt, it would be their descent from the first Seth devotees. The pat could be Horus worshippers, and the Sun-folk would be the original devotees of Re. The Sun folk could have been the first sky-watchers and that could explain their connection to the PT and their ability to "see" the deceased.

(These people seem to know the term but not necessarily what they are. They seem intrigued by how to spell it and if that gives a clue to the location or origin. I dunno that the remaining posts are relevant, but here is one more).

5.
I've re-read Gardiner and he brings up some points that Nibbi seems to ignore. She wants all three groups to be in the Delta, and she wants the two lands to be east and west, not north and south. (I haven't gotten her book yet or her later papers.) Seraano wants the Sun-folk in the sky. He discusses the origin of the word Hnmmt. He sees its possible roots in nmi, "to go to and fro", "to wander." That might make them travelers from afar -- maybe desert nomads. He doesn't want them on earth, but I disagree with him there, as I've said. He says there's no link between them and Heliopolis, but Gardiner provides one in addition to a PT that Serrano dismisses.

I'm not sure about the rxyt as a marginalized people. Gardiner points out that they were apparently all over Egypt, which also argues against them as Delta people. I found two references to excluding the rxyt. One was from a temple of Amun-re. They were not allowed to pass a certain point. The other is a reference in a PT that suggests they cannot get into heaven, or cannot use the sky doors. I'm not sure what these really mean. AFAIK, Cohanim cannot enter cemetaries or be around dead bodies, but they are not second-class citizens. The word rx seems to mean "wise man" or "to know." The word rxt means "knowledge." Could there be a connection with rxyt? Maybe something like the rules for the Cohanim was operating? They may not have been priests, but simply subject to certain rules for some reason.

As for Seth, since he was an ally of Re, and I don't see his worshippers being at odds with the Sun-folk. The earliest stories about him involve his conflict with Horus, and there is no violence. Osiris is added later, and IMO, his murder is about the creation of Dt time, since I see the whole Horus-Seth-Osiris-Thoth thing as being about calendrics.

I agree with what you say about religious identities in ancient Egypt, or ancient cultures or even quite different modern ones for that matter. I can see the names reflecting some ethnicity, maybe tribes, maybe clans (?). I can also see some kind of fraternal societies, like guilds or war societies, expecially if all the groups were found in Egypt. Some society's rules might explain the exclusions I wrote about above.

These groups are distinguished from others who are non-Egyptian, right? IOW, if the rxyt are Libyans they are somehow different from the ones called Tekenu -- or are they? Has anyone studied how these terms change over time? Do we know anything about how a person acquired a label? In something I've read on the names from Deir el-Medina, one nickname was given to Libyans IIRC. I wonder if anyone has studied personal names and these classes of people in Egypt.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply VBadJuJu, but I'm afraid I couldn't understand half the stuff from that discussion forum. Embarassed
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