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Is Queen Hatshepsut Moses' princess?

 
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Sekhmet225
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:57 pm    Post subject: Is Queen Hatshepsut Moses' princess? Reply with quote

Idea I've read many places that some historians believe that Hatshepsut was the princess that drew Moses out of the river and that Thutmoses III
was the Pharoah of the Exodus. After doing some research I realized that this might very well be true. Has anyone came across any hardcore evidence. Wink
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's an article in KMT journal called: "PHARAOH'S DAUGHTER & Her Adopted Hebrew "Son" by Omar Zuhdi"
VOLUME 14 . Number 4 . Winter 2003-04
http://www.egyptology.com/kmt/winter2003_04/index.html

I can't remember what the arguments were for placing Moses during the reign of Hatshepsut.

Other popular theories include that Moses was contemporary with Akhenaten.
Another theory has him as a contemporary of Ramesses II.

Another theory would place him much earlier: During the 2nd intermediate period roughly time of NeferhotepI and his brothers Si-Hathor and Sebekhotep (hope I remember the names correctly).

For as far as I can tell the problem is that there are no egyptian sources that give any evidence of Moses at all. This of course doesn't mean he could not have existed, just that there is no (egyptian) evidence that points to him.
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Daughter_Of_SETI
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never heard of Moses being attributed to the reign of Hatshepsut...makes me wonder what points to that idea? Idea The most convincing theory I've heard so far is that Ramses II was the pharaoh of the Exodus, so that would mean one of his daughters picked him out of the Nile (he had many daughters, so it's anyone's guess which one it could've been). The reason why Ramses II makes sense, is that one of the towns mentioned in association with the Exodus is 'Ramses' which was likely built by one of the Ramses, hence the Exodus would've had to have occurred during or after the reign of Ramses I. Also, the stela of Merenptah (constructed in his fifth ruling year) mentions the Israelites as wanderers, not as a country. I'm not too good with my Bible studies, so I don't quite know how this works, but apparently if you count back the years from the Israelites being wanderers in the fifth year of Merenptah, it would put the Exodus roughly in the twentieth year of Ramses II's reign. Confused I think Ramses II's first son, Amunherkhepshef, died in about his seventeenth year, which is again why Ramses II seems likely.
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Sekhmet225
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to some sources Thutmoses had three other sons Amenose Ramoses Wadjmose from a lesser wife Mutnofret. Ramose is very close to the name Ramses. Ramoses other two brothers died in their teens. He grew up side by side with Moses. Seeing as Hatshepsut was the Queen Heir and Royal linage is carried through the female that would have made Moses Thutmoses II so to speak the one who conquered the Ethiopians. Moses in the bible is said to have married an Ethiopian woman. There is also Ethiopian myth that the king 's daughter was in love with Moses and in an attempt to create alliances he married the princess Tharbis. Some sources place the date of 1485 when Moses slew the Egyptian official and fled. This was 8 years before the death of Thutmoses I. Ramoses replaced Moses as Thutmose II pretty much picking up where he left off and taking credit. I found this all a little interesting so I'm still trying to match dates and biblical knowledge.
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isisinacrisis
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never heard of the Hatshepsut theory either and usually take these claims with a pinch of salt (thanks to the whole 'Moses and Akhenaten' thing-I know it's a different period of time but still...some authors love to extrapolate biblica-Egyptian archeology a little bit too far, if you know what I mean.)
Personally I don't believe the Hebrews were ever enslaved entirely by the Egyptians, and I'm not sure I believe the popular Ramses II theory either. Some things don't really fit, in my mind. I think kmt-sesh wrote somewhere a very interesting theory that the Exodus-if such a thing occured-took place much earlier, at the beginning of the new kingdom, and that maybe the Hyskos being expelled from Egypt could have been the inspiration for the Hebrew exodus (they weren't Hebrews, of course, but they were a Semitic people who fled Egypt).
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Hatshepsut really fished Moses out of the Nile then she must have done that at a very early age.

Rougly estimated (from archeological record):
She likely married her bother Tuthmosis II when she was ca 15 years old.
She ruled as Queen for approx. 12 years, so she was ca 27 when she became regent for Tuthmosis III.
She ruled as regent and later as Pharaoh for some 22 years and died in her late 40s (early 50s). (This matches the estimated age of her mummy).

If she adopted Moses as a baby, she according to the bible did so as Pharaoh's daughter. I think that indicates she must have done so in her early teens.

If that is the case then Moses would have grown up at her court and must have become involved with the army and gone to Ethiopia during Hatshepsut's rule. I don't know of any royal princes or army commanders from that time that come close to matching any description of Moses.

Hatshepsut is never associated with any son. The only young boy we know that grew up under her care is Tuthmosis III himself and he certainly is not Moses as Tuthmosis lived, died, and was buried in Egypt.

I'm not so convinced by the dating to the time of Ramesses either. The fact that the hebrews are said to have built Pithom and Pi-Ramesses is not that convincing. The area where Pi-Ramesses was located was inhabited at several points in time before the new city was built. They could just as easily have been referring to one of those previous settlements but using a name that was more familiar to those who wrote the story.

I once read a comment that the whole exodus would have been a rather bad calamity. Moreover, Moses' behavior would have been seen as a betrayal. Egyptians really didn't record such events for posterity, so one wouldn't really expect to find any evidence of this whole story in the egyptian records.
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isisinacrisis wrote:
Quote:
I think kmt-sesh wrote somewhere a very interesting theory that the Exodus-if such a thing occured-took place much earlier, at the beginning of the new kingdom, and that maybe the Hyskos being expelled from Egypt could have been the inspiration for the Hebrew exodus...


A good memory you have, isisinacrisis. Very Happy Yes, that was me. I wrote that back in March 2005 and it can be found here. This is hardly a new theory and I'm far from the first to propose it, and it must be stressed that many leading scholars don't agree with it. Still, in the absence of credible evidence to state otherwise, I find it to be a compelling and legitimate argument to make.

As anneke mentioned, there are no Egyptian sources that reveal anything of Moses to us. And as Daughter_Of_SETI said, the Victory Stela of Merenptah lists the early Israelis not as a sociopolicital entity (i.e., a state or kingdom) but as "wanderers"--I like that description, Daughter_Of_SETI. Merenptah would've commissioned this stela around the year 1208 BCE. Anneke further stressed why dating the Exodus to the time of Ramesses II is not too reliable.

The most serious problem is, outside the Old Testament itself, there simply is no evidence that a great Hebrew leader named Moses ever existed; even more, outside the Old Testament, there remains no credible evidence on which scholars can agree that the Exodus itself ever occurred. The fact that the name "Moses" sounds Egyptian is not evidence to be taken too seriously--it also resembles root sounds in Hebrew.

Let's return to the dating of the Victory Stela of Merenptah: around 1208 BCE. The archaeological record in the Levant demonstrates that the Hebrews did not become a true political entity till after 1,000 BCE, in the Early Iron Age. Merenptah's stela, which was written over 200 years before that, in the Late Bronze Age, clearly reveals that the Egyptians themselves viewed the Hebrews of the time as simple nomads. The Egyptians were fond of recording the level of sociopolitical status reached by the peoples they had conquered, so at the time of Merenptah the early Hebrews had probably only recently begun populating the highlands of Judaea. Their status as a recognizable kingdom was quite a ways off yet.

The preponderance of evidence tells us there was no such thing as a nation of Hebrews at the time of either Ramesses II or Merenptah, so by extension there certainly was no such entity over 200 years earlier, at the time of Hatshepsut. It goes to show that the Bible alone cannot be used as evidence--what it tells us must be carefully weighed against other textual evidence, and of course archaeological evidence.

I know, I'm a big, mean, old party-pooper. Razz
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Sekhmet225
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL!! Laughing Funny kmt_sesh... Thanx for sharing I'm still new to this. However I like the insight and the info is cool. More to read and weigh.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Always more to read! That's one of the things I love about ancient Egypt. Very Happy
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