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The Black Pharaohs
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Gerard.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We mainly have representation of the elites and in these one, IMO, very very few show to-day african caracteristics (e.g. Narmer and his victims do not look africans).
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel kmt_sesh (it's almost too painful to say) made the best point here.
"They didn't care what color your skin was.
If you were Egyptian you were superior. If not, you were strange.
In other words, the Egyptians distrusted everyone else equally."
When we assign Ancient Egyptians notions as race and color, we generalise.
We generalise and create an anachronism. It's like naming Italians Romans.
Or Brits Celts, Americans Indians, Spaniards Wisigoths, Tunesians Vandals, and so on.
Labeling Anicent Egyptians with a color or race is useless and scientifically inaccurate.
Ancient Egyptians were simply Ancient Egyptians.
And those during Narmer were not those during Tut or during Cleo.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmt_sesh wrote:
Quote:
LOl Besides you don't want to start the Brits on slang Smile I have seen a little of that and trust me it takes a bit of work to get all the nuances ...


Aw, come on. I have truly enjoyed picking up all sorts of Brit slang from Daughter_Of_SETI and isisinacrisis. I even feel that I could visit most areas of the U.K. without a translator. Razz


Very Happy I enjoyed it as well. I find the development of language and its local dialects really fascinating.
And daughter of Sety and Isisinacrisis have used it as it should: as an aside and for the sake of humor. Not as their main mode of expression.

LOL Somehow that reminds me of tv shows where they subtitle people who use slang a lot.

Segereh and kmt-sesh: I agree with both of you (hey seggie if you thought it pained you to agree with kmt-sesh, how do you think I feel having to agree with both of you?)

The whole race debate seems like a lost cause. I saw someone on another board mention something like; "that's a real minefield. Good luck getting to the other side and let me know when you get there."

And it does seem that this is a modern sensitivity superimposed on an ancient culture where - as you put it - the perceived differences were between egyptian and non-egyptian and had nothing to do with skin color.

I think it would be wise to learn from the ancient egyptians and stop using race and color as a defining term.
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Gerard.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Segereh wrote:
If you were Egyptian you were superior. If not, you were strange.
An article on Ethnic Identity in Ancient Egypt :
http://www.charlottesegypt.com/pdf/Ethnicity%20%20in%20Egypt.pdf

With discussions on slang, colour/color aren't we off-topic ?
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Dadude
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Dadude wrote:

the notion of black people being uncivilized is untrue,

Completely agree.

Dadude wrote:

while the notion of ancient egypt being black is true.

I think maybe predominantly black is a better way of putting it.
From ca 1700 BCE there were well recordeed immigrations of middle eastern groups. First the Hyksos, later the slaves the egyptians took or accepted as tribute (the Retenu for instance) created quite a few foreign communities in Egypt.

Not to mention that there seem to have been a fair share of immigrants based on some of the names of even fairly high placed individuals at court (Aperel, Urihiya, etc seem to have been from a middle eastern background). And that makes sense (well to me at least). Egypt was one of the most prosperous countries. It seems natural that this would attract people from other cultures.

Before that there may have been other immigrations into the Nile valley, but that would be harder to prove.


Well yeah, that's what i meant, the core, founding ethnic stock of Egypt was what we would call "black" or "African". Of course there were a lot of immigrants (from the near east more than anywhere else) into egypt that mixed with (but also assimilated into) the local population. But that still doesnt change the fact that the majority of the egyptian population was (as you pointed out) African.

Dadude wrote:

that simple enough for ya? Very Happy

I don't need simple, just correct English Very Happy
Also remember that this board is very international in nature. We have people here from France, Germany, Belgium, Great Brittain, etc. Considering that English is not the native language for quite a few members, refraining from using too much overt slang would be the kind thing to do.

LOl Besides you don't want to start the Brits on slang Smile I have seen a little of that and trust me it takes a bit of work to get all the nuances ...[/quote]

LOL....
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Dadude
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerard. wrote:
We mainly have representation of the elites and in these one, IMO, very very few show to-day african caracteristics (e.g. Narmer and his victims do not look africans).


hey my man let's not try to get embroiled in race debate, alright Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh and mad word to the point about egyptians being color-blind and seing things only in terms of culture Very Happy
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Gerard.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who has learned the history of the USA and visit most of the states know that when newcomers are more numerous and have a better technology than the natives, they overrun them. Anybody born there is american, unless he decides not to be, and this whatever the origin of the parents. The same scenario occured in Ancient Egypt.

To-day facts help to understand the past. Past history help to understand the present and guess the future.
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Dadude
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerard. wrote:
Who has learned the history of the USA and visit most of the states know that when newcomers are more numerous and have a better technology than the natives, they overrun them. Anybody born there is american, unless he decides not to be, and this whatever the origin of the parents. The same scenario occured in Ancient Egypt.

To-day facts help to understand the past. Past history help to understand the present and guess the future.


and this happened when in the history of ancient egypt?????
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hyksos
Nubians
Assyrians
Persians
Macedonians

The interesting part is that the ones who stayed a while longer (Hyksos, Nubians, Macedonians) seem to have adapted to the Egyptian culture.

The invaders seem to have occupied parts of the country (not all of it).
The Hyksos were mainly centered in the Delta, The Kingdom of Napata reached as far as Thebes and may have even made thier way to Memphis, but the lower Delta seems to have mainly stayed in the hands of some local rulers.

Not sure how far south the Assyrians and the Persians reached. I'm pretty sure they ultimately sacked Thebes. But I cannot remember if they got much further south than that.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Hyksos
Nubians
Assyrians
Persians
Macedonians

The interesting part is that the ones who stayed a while longer (Hyksos, Nubians, Macedonians) seem to have adapted to the Egyptian culture.

The invaders seem to have occupied parts of the country (not all of it).
The Hyksos were mainly centered in the Delta, The Kingdom of Napata reached as far as Thebes and may have even made thier way to Memphis, but the lower Delta seems to have mainly stayed in the hands of some local rulers.

Not sure how far south the Assyrians and the Persians reached. I'm pretty sure they ultimately sacked Thebes. But I cannot remember if they got much further south than that.


Ooh thats wat Gerard was referring to? Lol my bad....yeah all those people above invaded egypt..and all of them except the Persians either assimilated into the culture or (if their lands were already egyptianized colonies) saw themselves as merely continuing the pharaonic tradition. thanks for clarifying Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anneke, when comparing with the beginning of the USA, I was thinking only of pre-dynastic Egypt. I could have compare it with the beginning of France or Great Britain. Incidentally my grandchildren are citizen of these three countries.

When Alexander went to Egypt a lot of greeks were already there as mercenaries. In the Ptolemy dyn. only the last Cleopatra spoke egyptian.
With the Ptolemies, jews and greeks were not under the same law than the rest of the country. So-called Hyksos were barelly foreign to Egypt and in any case were not invaders as such; the next issue of Toutankhmon Magazine will published my article on how the XV dyn is perceived by ancient egyptians and modern writers.
Assyrians, Persians, Romans mainly run Egypt through egyptians or their own citizen.
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Gerard.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When discussing Ancient Egypt, we must always remember that the area where humans could live is not bigger than let say New-Hampshire.
The Nil flood and its benefits were certainly attractive for people living from agriculture products and a passive immigration is not an invasion.
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