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Who'se Aanen

 
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chillie
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:07 pm    Post subject: Who'se Aanen Reply with quote

I've heard of a possible brother of Ay, Aanen? but not much about him
Anyone else?
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Robson
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anen is certainly Tiye's brother, once that on her mother's coffin brings the inscriptions "her son, the Second Prophet of Amun, Anen". The relationship with Ay is but conjectural, just because of the similarity between the names Yuya (Tiye and Anen's father) and Ay, and the later bears the titles of Father of the God and Master of Horse, borne by the former.

Anen, besides, was the Great Seer (High Priest) of Re-Horakhty in "Heliopolis of South" (i.e., Hermonthis).
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chillie
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So there is no certainty that Ay is Tiye's brother?
Did he come from Akmin also?

Thank you!!
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have some info about him on a webpage:
http://euler.slu.edu/%7Ebart/egyptianhtml/kings%20and%20Queens/Anen.html

No there is no certainty about Aye being Anen and Tiye's brother. I think the theory comes from the observation that Aye held some similar titles to Yuya, the father of Tiye and Anen.

The connection to Akhmim for Aye comes from the chapel dedicated by the High Priest of Min Nakhtmin. So that Aye and his wife Tey are attested in Akhmim during his reign.

I think some other items (a box belonging to Tey?) has been found in Akhmim as well.
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neseret
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
I have some info about him on a webpage:
http://euler.slu.edu/%7Ebart/egyptianhtml/kings%20and%20Queens/Anen.html

No there is no certainty about Aye being Anen and Tiye's brother. I think the theory comes from the observation that Aye held some similar titles to Yuya, the father of Tiye and Anen.


Otto Schaden's 1977 dissertation on Ay found that the so-called similiarity in titles was something of an ephemeral argument, and could find no direct connection between Yuya and Ay, or that the two were even related. The Akhmim connection may be that of a different family, he conjectured. This seems to have support from Ockinga's excavation of the two male "nurses/tutors" who were related to Ay.

See on this:

Ockinga, B. G. 1997. A Tomb from the Reign of Tutankhmun at Akhmim. Australian Center for Egyptology Reports 10. Warminster: Aris and Phillips.

Schaden, O. J. 1977. The God's Father, Ay. Ph.D. Dissertation (Unpublished). History. Minneapolis: University of Minnesota. [Available from ProQuest Dissertation Service.]

HTH.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that info neseret. I had always wondered how much they would really be able to deduce just from titles.

I believe the theory about the family of Yuya etc originally came from Cyril Aldred, right?

Very Happy That theory went pretty far if I remember. With Yuya being a brother of Queen Mutemwia. The idea being that several generations presented the royal family with a great royal wife.

That reminds me: do you know what the thoughts are about why Amenhotep III married Tiye in the first place? Why would a local family of nobles be allowed to marry their daughter into the royal family? And not just as a member of the harem, but as great royal wife no less.
That has always amazed me. I think Yuya and Tuya are usually viewed as somewhat minor players, but wouldn't they have had a place of privilege as the royal in-laws? And with the couple being rather young, wouldn't that have possibly given them some power and influence?

I have never been able to even speculate as to who would have been the power behind the throne when Amenhotep III came to power. I don't think he would have assumed all power immediately would he? He seems to have been a rather young boy.
I know that adulthood was considered somewhere between 12 and 16 (I always thought that the Bakenkhonsu inscription implied it was 16, but you have mentioned before it may have been as young as 12).
Seems like a lot though to take the throne at 8-12 and then arrange your own royal wedding?
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chillie
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Idea

I don't know, sadly, but as you said in when discussing the Queens of great ambition/power, you mentioned connections. I can imagine that Tiy's family must have held positions or had something extremely worthwhile in order for her to pass over any higher ranked women in the harem. To quote you again, I imagine it was more than just a pretty face.

Is there more information on how Tiy married?
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neseret
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
That reminds me: do you know what the thoughts are about why Amenhotep III married Tiye in the first place? Why would a local family of nobles be allowed to marry their daughter into the royal family? And not just as a member of the harem, but as great royal wife no less.
That has always amazed me. I think Yuya and Tuya are usually viewed as somewhat minor players, but wouldn't they have had a place of privilege as the royal in-laws? And with the couple being rather young, wouldn't that have possibly given them some power and influence?

I have never been able to even speculate as to who would have been the power behind the throne when Amenhotep III came to power. I don't think he would have assumed all power immediately would he? He seems to have been a rather young boy.
I know that adulthood was considered somewhere between 12 and 16 (I always thought that the Bakenkhonsu inscription implied it was 16, but you have mentioned before it may have been as young as 12).
Seems like a lot though to take the throne at 8-12 and then arrange your own royal wedding?


It's always been my understanding that since Yuya was the /it nTr/ "father of the god" - something of a mentor/godfather position held by officials of the royal court (See Janssen and Janssen 2007 on the role of the /it nTr/) - to a young Amenhotep III, it's very possible that the match was one of marrying the person with whom you may have grown up through your life. Obviously, Yuya would have had the young prince close to him and his family, and by that, Amenhotep III would have met, and seen regularly, Tiye.

This was one reason why I think the "Boundaries Scarab" which announces Tiye as his Great Royal Wife is likely worded as it was - in a rather bald way of stating who she is, that her parents are not royal, but in the long run, it doesn't matter: she's the wife of a mighty king and is a force to be reckoned with on that basis alone. Wink

In short, it seems to have been a love match. love4

Further, I'm not sure how "minor" Yuya and Thuya were in the royal court, likely of Thutmose IV and Mutemwiya. Yuya's titles include:

/rp.t/ - noble/count
'Foremost Companion of the King'(Amenhotep III)
'favourite of the good god' (Amenhotep III? or Thutmose IV?)
/imy-r ssmt/ 'Overseer of the Horse' (General of the Cavalry)
/it nTr nb tAwy/ 'father of the god, the Lord of the Two Lands'
Prophet of Min (at Akhmim)
Superintendent of the oxen of Min (at Akhmim)

Thuya's titles were mainly those of a noble female at court:

Probably: /rpa.t/ noblewoman/countess
/Xkrt nsw/, "Ornament of the king" (lady in waiting) (Thutmose IV? or Amenhotep III?)
/Smayt n imn/ 'Chantress of Amun'
/Xkrt n imn/ 'ornament of (the harem) of Amun'
/hsy.t n Hwt-Hr/ 'favoured one of Hathor'
/mwt nsw n Hmt nsw wr.t/ 'royal mother of the Great Wife of the King (Tiye)'

The relationship of Aanen, the son, is spelled out on Thuya's coffin as /sA.s Hm-nTr sn.nw n Imn, Aannw/, "her son, second prophet of Amun, Aanen".

BTW: Concerning Schaden's arguments about Ay and Yuya. I found the following from another post I made elsewhere and thought it may be of interest to you:

Basically Schaden takes the presumption that Ay and Yuya are related and examines the theory closely. Aldred based his theory on 5 assumptions:

1) similarity of names (/YwyA/, /aiAA/, etc., and /aiy/);
2) similarity of titles (Overseer of Horses and /it nTr/);
3) similarity of epithets (both were "Foremost Companions of the King", "Praised of the Good God", and "One who Satisfies the Good God of the Entire Land.");
4) connections with Akhmim (Yuya was High Priest of Min in Akhmim, while Ay (as King) built a shrine at Akhmim. Officials during the reigns of Tutankhamun and Ay both had officials with name prefixes/suffixes with "Min", the majority deity of Akhmim), and
5) physical resemblance.

Schaden noted the first assumption was a weak argument - the rendering of Yuya's and Ay's names are made of weak consonants, it is true. But there are wide variations in the rendering of Yuya's name (even within his tomb), while Ay's name is consistently rendered as /aiy/. Schaden states: Though these names are of a similar type, there is no certainty that a similarity in names must imply a relationship (Schaden 1977: Cool.

In the second part (same titles of Overseer of Horses and /it nTr/), Schaden argues that while a military title might be passed onto a son from a father, the title of /it nTr/ does not always carry such an assumption (for earlier discussion of the /it nTr/ title's position as a tutor to a royal child in the New Kingdom, see Janssen and Janssen 2007). For this reason, Schaden does not find the possession of the titles as necessarily implication of a familial relationship, nor does he think that the third assumption, the possession of similar epithets, is also necessarily indicative of a family relationship (Schaden 1977: 9).

Schaden is also less than convinced by the Akhmim significance, though he calls it "of interest", but states While such evidence may be of significance, it is inconclusive (Schaden 1977: 9).

As for the final assumption of "physical resemblance," Schaden saves this criticism as his most severe, concluding the assumption is on "weak ground," saying, Had we the mummies of both men, a definite conclusion might be possible. As things stand at present, we can only compare Yuya's mummy with various artistic representations of Ay. To compound the difficulties, these representations include the Amarna style and the more orthodox forms of the post-Amarna period. Such comparisons are somewhat hazardous. As a result, the argument of physical resemblance is very tenuous (Schaden 1977: 9-10).
While there is a brief discussion of an "Ay, Overseer of the Works, son of Ruty", Schaden agrees with Helck (1939: 74, n. 1) that there is no reason to assume the two men are the same, mainly due to the lack of the /it nTr/ title, which made up Ay's titles almost from the beginning of the Amarna period.


Reference:

Davis, T. M. 2000 (1907-1908). The Tomb of Iouiya and Touiyou, with the Funeral Papyrus of Iouiya. Duckworth Egyptology. N. Reeves. London: Duckworth.

Janssen, R. M. and J. J. Janssen. 2007. Growing Up and Getting Old in Ancient Egypt. London: Golden House Publications.

Schaden, O. J. 1977. The God's Father, Ay. Ph.D. Dissertation (Unpublished). History. Minneapolis: University of Minnesota.

HTH.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the info neseret Very Happy

It's interesting that if Yuya was a mentor of Amenhotep III, then he would have to have been associated with Mutemwia during the reign of Tuthmosis IV. And I mean associated in the loosest sense, like part of her "entourage" or household. Unless the boy was taken from his mother's household to be raised elsewhere?

I don't remember when Amenhotep III was more or less declared heir, but I think that happened some years before Tuthmosis IV died.

Very Happy Childhood sweethearts? Would be nice for them Very Happy
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