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Amarna what do u make of it
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Mandi
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:43 am    Post subject: Sorry, I am only going by what i am reading... Reply with quote

My apologies for any mistakes and i can't thank you enough for your corrections. I am studying through a distance program from Leicester University. It is quite interesting truly. Anyway, my source materials include, Oxford History Of Egypt or something (Sorry the book is not presently in front of me) The other source book would be The Nubian Past An Archaeology of Nubia. On top of that i am reading another source material which seems to be a book of lectures on the subject which Leicester provides. Along with a book that is of my choosing, Egypt, Canaan, and Israel In Ancient Times by Redford. It is also my favorite so far. Anyway, according to the book of lectures, "Akhenaten's religious changes only lasted some 20 years and were swiftly abandoned after his death. There was a more extreme reaction against them some 50 years later at the beginning of the 19th Dynasty." It does continue along those lines from there in relation to destruction a bit....And my apologies.... I did make a screw up as for the ending of Akhenaten and his wife.... Was i mixing them up with someone else? It would seem that nothing is said about a horrible end. I am very very sorry for stating something so false. I am just beginning this study... It is all new to me. I don't yet have an indepth understanding of everything. I think i asumed there was something ugly and painful involved for 2 reasons. Acordding to my book, the umm conversion was more or less against the will of the people. Or perhaps a better way to put it is they really were not into it, converts of such a nature can be rather dangerous in a place where the people are so focused on religion. Secondly it mentioned something about a stelae reporting the state of affairs. (I must have been reading late as it is from after his death) and i clearly missed that particular part. I thought the deterioration may have sparked something. Again i am sorry.
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Gerard.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mandi wrote:
it mentioned something about a stelae reporting the state of affairs.
Thread on this stele http://www.forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=3404 This document is typical of a text which should not be read at face value.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerard. wrote:
This document is typical of a text which should not be read at face value.

It's not because it is a standard text-type, that it should be disregarded so easily.
One wouldn't disregard the contents of the Papyrus Harris either, just because of the type of text.
There are at least 2 basic issues of this stela that ring true:
Akhenaten induced a religious and a military crisis.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:48 pm    Post subject: Yes so it would seem Reply with quote

I am not sure what writing form or what was used. I can't read these things yet. As i have said before i am a songe.... I will pick up anything you all choose to drop. So i am glad to be here because i find already on some things there is a newer clarity. In time i do hope to learn to read heiroglyphs.... But uhmmm one thing at a time!!! This is a bit overwhelming too! I haven't studied now really in like atleast 6 or 7 years. First i want to get a reasonable grasp of the history then i can go for the next phase in my evil diabolical plan of understanding ancient Egypt, learning the language. But i am curious why and how the language or text would matter or be discardable to any extent based on the writing?

As for the military and religious "crisis" my books do point them out rather specifically and that there was some looming threat which is why it would seem Horemhab needed to be in power? As he was best equippeed to deal with it? Again, my understanding is kind of sketchy on some things. Also my book points out the state of destruction so to speak or maybe a better way to say it would be a general state of decay in the rest of egypt as far as the buildings would go etc outside the Aten city, also pointed out in this text. Again, i am just repeating what i have read. I am sure all of you know better than i do.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Segereh wrote:
Akhenaten induced a religious and a military crisis.
The religious crisis was already there if one believe J.Assmann's book Egyptian Solar Religion in the New Kingdom, Re, Amun and the crisis of polytheism.

Military crisis because of Akhenaten, I do not think so. Just before Tut, the boy king, three kings (Akhenaten, Smenkhkare, Neferneferuaten [a woman]) died in three years. Qadesh and Amurru left the egyptian sphere after the death of Akhenaten, because Egypt was without a leader.

We forget too often that Thutmose III in year 42 was unable to take Qadesh. Starting with Amenhotep II, year 9, egyptian foreign policy in Asia was based on diplomacy. Thutmose IV went, before year 6, up to Naharina but without meeting the Mitannians.

When Thutmose III went to Asia he came back with slaves and booty, Had he sent an army, what Akhenaten would have get when his vassals were already sending a tribute every year ? Foolish Ramses II after his draw at Qadesh lost most, if not every, asian vassals in a year.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Yes so it would seem Reply with quote

Mandi wrote:
But i am curious why and how the language or text would matter or be discardable to any extent based on the writing?

What I meant before, was that the stela you refered to (the Restoration Stela) is a typical example of a text in which it gets described how a King submerges from a period of chaos (isfet, remember?) to restore order (mašt). This type of writing is frequent enough throughout Egyptian history to almost call it a "formula" - which means it does not always portray reality, rather than the expression of "making everything ok again".

I answered Gerard though, because I do not agree in reading that Stela as merely such a "formula" alone.
I've studied it for months before I wrote an article on it, and the text refers to tangible events.

Mandi wrote:
As for the military and religious "crisis" my books do point them out rather specifically and that there was some looming threat which is why it would seem Horemhab needed to be in power? As he was best equippeed to deal with it?

I'd rather state it as: he seemed to be the right guy at the right time at the right place.
Horemheb did indeed herald the 19th Dynasty. He deserves all the credit he gets.

Gerard. wrote:
The religious crisis was already there if one believe J.Assmann's book Egyptian Solar Religion in the New Kingdom, Re, Amun and the crisis of polytheism.

What I mean by "religious crisis" is not religious alterations alone.
It was only under Akhenaten that other temples had to pay a tribute to the Aten temple.
It was only under Akhenaten that other gods and their temples were "persecuted".
This was a step beyond the religious changes under Amenhotep III.
This was a religious revolution, creating a crisis.
If you drained the temples, you drained the economy.
If you stopped the temple cults, you stopped all that surrounded it.

Gerard. wrote:
Military crisis because of Akhenaten, I do not think so. Just before Tut, the boy king, three kings (Akhenaten, Smenkhkare, Neferneferuaten [a woman]) died in three years. Qadesh and Amurru left the egyptian sphere after the death of Akhenaten, because Egypt was without a leader.

They left in the final years of Akhenaten actually.
Mitanni was losing its stability rapidly during the first decade after Amenhotep III's death.
Through this Amurru was dropping tis loyalty to the Egyptian King.
Through this Kadesh was in the hands of a Hittite puppet.
Something was rotten in the periphery of Ancient Egypt.
But "induced military crisis" was a sad connection of words.
Akhenaten did not create this situation, he more or less suffered it.

Gerard. wrote:
Had he sent an army, what Akhenaten would have get when his vassals were already sending a tribute every year ? Foolish Ramses II after his draw at Qadesh lost most, if not every, asian vassals in a year.

Concerning both battles at Kadesh: booty was not the issue.
Traderoutes were the issue, more precisely Egyptian access to them.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:21 pm    Post subject: You explain things very well... Reply with quote

Thank you once again apreciated!
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:25 pm    Post subject: Re: You explain things very well... Reply with quote

Mandi wrote:
Thank you once again apreciated!

I tend to rant: thx for the appreciation.
Anneke and Gerard won't like to hear it, but I'll see this as an encouragement. Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:39 pm    Post subject: Rant? Reply with quote

haha You should hear me when i get going....So i try not to. But hey knowledge can be passed along in many different forms and ways. It is a gift no matter what shape it takes. But seriously you should see me rant... I hasve been going for about a mobnth straight almost non stop about this wedding. I am having some problems....So, ranting becomses important. Plus i don't like it either when people give out inaccurate information which is why i stress i am just a worthless student trying to learn and my understanding is very limited. It drives me nuts too when people give me inaccurate information. It actually drives me actively nuts.... So, i am sure i will rant my share too in time when i have an understanding enough to know when there is something rant worthy.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:55 am    Post subject: Re: Yes so it would seem Reply with quote

Segereh wrote:
Mitanni was losing its stability rapidly during the first decade after Amenhotep III's death.
At the time of Amenhotep III, Mitanni had a quick civil war, with the king being murdered and after it broke its relation with Egypt. When Tusratta became king, his rival allied himself with Hatti, as a consequence Tusratta had to renew with Egypt to get its support. It's all in the Amarna letters.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:04 am    Post subject: Thanx Reply with quote

I should read those. So much to read and life is just soooo short.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:09 am    Post subject: Re: Yes so it would seem Reply with quote

Segereh wrote:
If you drained the temples, you drained the economy.
If you stopped the temple cults, you stopped all that surrounded it.
I can only agree with you on these points, however they are not specific to religion. In the temples, no doubt the local cult was stopped, what happened to others activities, we do not know.
What surrounded temples are the festivals, stopping them created a vaccum. On top of this Akhenaten did not made a regular visit through Egypt; not seeing the king was propably a trauma for the Egyptians who then felt without a support.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Thanx Reply with quote

Mandi wrote:
I should read those. So much to read and life is just soooo short.

If you have any time: this is a rather nice place to start:
http://www.specialtyinterests.net/eae.html#top
The site itself is a bit quirky, but you do have all the letters there.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:45 am    Post subject: Once again, thank you Reply with quote

Apreciated... and i will check it out. Your effort to help me educate myself is really.... kind and generous. (All of you actually) And i am rather touched... Hopefully i will not turn out to be a poor student. I will try to make everyone proud when i have to write my next paper.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello... I guess I'm the late comer to this...

I read that it's recorded that during the reign Rameses III, the Temple of Amun at Karnak employed 80,000 people in all walks of life, from people to till their estates' fields to accountants and more... If such a large number of people had jobs through the temples, would they have all been out of work during Akhenaten's reign, or what could they have done? If I were thinking like a king, I'd be awfully concerned about so many people losing income because of me. Is there any recording of what might have happened here?
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