Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Isis, Hathor and Horus-who's the REAL mother?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Mythology and Religion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Rath_the_scribe
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Posts: 6
Location: some nut's house...

PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe you're half right Hathor isn't Horus' wife but the wife Ptah while Isis was Horus' mother. It's in most of the things that I have read and even written, Isis was his mother and Hathor was Ptah's wife, but your theroy of the cow goddess being is wet nurse are quite likely.
_________________
Rath:brains
Armon:muscle
Rath:Brains
Armon:Muscle
Rath:Muscle
Armon:Brains
Rath:Ha! Gotcha!-mummies Alive!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
Sesen
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 1048
Location: Luxor

PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I believe you're half right Hathor isn't Horus' wife but the wife Ptah while Isis was Horus' mother.

Smile This is Horus the Elder we are talking about - he's given as the brother of Isis, Nephthys, Osiris and Set. There are many forms of Horus.

The protector goddesses of the 4 sons of Horus the Elder are
Neith = Duamutef (Jackel - stomach)
Nephthys = Hapy (baboon - lungs)
Selket = Qebek-sennuef (falcon - intestines)
Isis = Imsety (human - liver)

Hathor (several Hathors too) is the wife of Horus of Edfu/ Horus the Elder - their son there is Ihy.
Sekhmet is generally given as the consort of Ptah in Memphis. They form a triad with Nefertum as the son.

My Prince wrote
Quote:
Hang on to your seats.

Laughing sound like we're all going for a ride *whooo hooo*
_________________
Priestess of Hathor, Superior of the Harem of Min, dedicated to Maat, beloved of Seshat and Nekhbet.
I enter as a hawk, I come out as a benu bird in the morning.-- Pert em-Hru, ch. 13
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
isisinacrisis
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 2228
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I heard somewhere that in the myths, the Horus gods get merged (or the aspects of the gods are merged)
I always wanted to know who was the mother of the 4 sons-I thought that was Hathor too, but you say it was Isis? it doesn't really specify in any of my books...
And is it true that the 4 sons are associated with the 4 directions/compass points too?
I never knew about Neith being connected with Set either.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Segereh
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Posts: 2934
Location: Bruges

PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Pretty Munchie wrote:
Laughing sound like we're all going for a ride *whooo hooo*


Ride with me... Cool
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Segereh
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Posts: 2934
Location: Bruges

PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not quoting Nelly, quoting Aragorn... Rolling Eyes
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Sesen
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 1048
Location: Luxor

PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And is it true that the 4 sons are associated with the 4 directions/compass points too?

Yeah I've read that also. Have also seen Hathor in her form as a sacred cow has her 4 legs depicted as the 4 points of the compass.

My Studly Prince wrote
Quote:
Ride with me...

Anywhere, everywhere sunny
_________________
Priestess of Hathor, Superior of the Harem of Min, dedicated to Maat, beloved of Seshat and Nekhbet.
I enter as a hawk, I come out as a benu bird in the morning.-- Pert em-Hru, ch. 13
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yhvh
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:32 am    Post subject: Re: Isis, Hathor and Horus-who's the REAL mother? Reply with quote

isisinacrisis wrote:
I hope this isn't too ranty as a thread, but it is long, very long, almost like a mini-essay...

As soon as I got into Egyptian mythology, I always thought that Isis was Horus's mum, simple as that. I also assumed that Hathor was his wife.
But then I see books, websites etc saying that it was actually Hathor who was Horus's real mother!
I've seen so many variations on this theme: one claims something I thought was a bit far fetched: 'Isis was a barren goddess and could have never physically given birth or concieved a child, meaning that Horus was not her biological son, but her adopted son.'
Another said that Hathor was originally Horus's mother, until Isis came along and 'usurped' that role along with Hathor's other attributes, most notably, the cow horn crown.
Another person says that the 'Isis as mother of Horus' is actually a purely Greco-Roman invention, and that to the true Egyptians it was Hathor all along. (That theory is bull in my opinion because there are so many Egyptian texts and inscriptions before roman times that say otherwise!)

Well I stick to my belief (though this may be proved wrong) that Isis is Horus's mother. And as for Hathor, I think she is Horus's wife/consort/companion, even maybe a wet nurse, but not his actual mother.
All the books I've read say Isis was Horus's mother, and I think it makes more sense, the conception of Horus by Isis occurred in magical, miraculous conditions, with her resurrection of Osiris, and she put all her love and energy into protecting her son from the forces of Set, and then bringing him up to avenge his father's death-and you get all sorts of stories about how she makes sure her son becomes king, how he chops off her head when she intervenes too much etc. But that's just my belief, probably cos I'm more inclined towards Isis (hence the username) Smile
There are many myths and images of Isis and her son, but AFAIK I haven't seen anything for Hathor in her role as mother, but maybe I haven't been looking properly.

Another idea is that there could be 2 different gods called Horus-one who was the son of Isis, one who was the son of Hathor.
Then isn't there Horus the son of Nut (as in the brother of Set, Osiris, Isis and Nephtys?) It all gets veeery baffling, as you can see...

Will the real mother of Horus please stand up, please stand up, please stand up? Very Happy



Answer: Mary ... lol
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Osiris II
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1752

PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isis, check this out. It's the story of Isis and Osiris, as told by the Egyptians:

http://www.egyptianmyths.net/mythisis.htm

They (the ancient Egyptians) believed that Isis was the mother of Horus, and the (dead) Osiris was the father.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yhvh
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:45 am    Post subject: Mary Reply with quote

Well, Isis is the pre-Christian Mary. Anyone with a good understanding of the history of Egypt can easily see this.



Egyptian Influence on other religions -

Egyptian culture, of which religion was an integral part, was influential in Nubia as early as predynastic times, and in Syria in the 3rd millennium BC. During the New Kingdom, Egypt was very receptive to cults from the Middle East, while Egyptian medical and magical expertise were highly regarded among the Hittites, Assyrians, and Babylonians. The chief periods of Egyptian influence were, however, the 1st millennium BC and the Roman period. Egypt was an important centre of the Jewish diaspora starting in the 6th century BC, and Egyptian literature influenced the Hebrew Bible. With Greek rule there was significant cultural interchange between Egyptians and Greeks. Notable among Egyptian cults that spread abroad were those of Isis, which reached much of the Roman world as a mystery religion, and of Sarapis, a god whose name probably derives from Osiris-Apis, who was worshiped widely in a non-Egyptian iconography and cultural milieu. With Isis went Osiris and Horus the child, but Isis was the dominant figure. Many Egyptian monuments were imported to Rome to provide a setting for the principal Isis temple in the 1st century AD.

The cult of Isis was probably influential on another level. The myth of Osiris shows some analogies with the Gospel story and, in the figure of Isis, with the role of the Virgin Mary. The iconography of the Virgin and Child has evident affinities with that of Isis and the infant Horus. Thus, one aspect of Egyptian religion may have contributed to the background of early Christianity, probably through the cultural centre of Alexandria. Egypt also was an influential setting for other religious and philosophical developments of late antiquity such as Gnosticism, Manicheism, Hermetism, and Neoplatonism, some of which show traces of traditional Egyptian beliefs. Some of these religions became important in the intellectual culture of the Renaissance. Finally, Christian monasticism seems to have originated in Egypt and could look back to a range of native practices, among which were seclusion in temple precincts and the celibacy of certain priestesses. Within Egypt, there are many survivals from earlier times in popular Christianity and Islām.

"Egyptian religion." Encyclopædia Britannica.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/180764/Egyptian-religion




From the funny apologists at the Catholic Encyclopedia -

The opponents of the historical actuality of the virgin birth grant that either the Evangelists or the interpolators of the Gospels borrowed their material from an early Christian tradition, but they endeavour to show that this tradition has no solid historical foundation. About A.D. 153 St. Justin (First Apology 21) told his pagan readers that the virgin birth of Jesus Christ ought not to seem incredible to them, since many of the most esteemed pagan writers spoke of a number of sons of Zeus. About A.D. 178 the Platonic philosopher Celsus ridiculed the virgin birth of Christ, comparing it with the Greek myths of Danae, Melanippe, and Antiope; Origen (c. Cels. I, xxxvii) answered that Celsus wrote more like a buffoon than a philosopher. But modern theologians again derive the virgin birth of Our Lord from unhistorical sources, though their theories do not agree.


A first class of writers have recourse to pagan mythology in order to account for the early Christian tradition concerning the virgin birth of Jesus. Usener argues that the early Gentile Christians must have attributed to Christ what their pagan ancestors had attributed to their pagan heroes; hence the Divine sonship of Christ is a product of the religious thought of Gentile Christians. Hillmann and Holtzmann agree substantially with Usener's theory. Conrady found in the Virgin Mary a Christian imitation of the Egyptian goddess Isis, the mother of Horus; but Holtzmann declares that he cannot follow this "daring construction without a feeling offear and dizziness", and Usener is afraid that his friend Conrady moves on a precipitous track. Soltau tries to transfer the supernatural origin of Augustus to Jesus, but Lobstein fears that Soltau's attempt may throw discredit on science itself, and Kreyher refutes the theory more at length.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15448a.htm


The cult of Isis spread throughout Egypt. In Akhmīm she received special attention as the “mother” of the fertility god Min. She had important temples throughout Egypt and Nubia. By Greco-Roman times she was dominant among Egyptian goddesses, and she received acclaim from Egyptians and Greeks for her many names and aspects. Several temples were dedicated to her in Alexandria, where she became the “patroness of seafarers.” From Alexandria her cult was brought to all the shores of the Mediterranean, including Greece and Rome. In Hellenistic times the mysteries of Isis and Osiris developed; these were comparable to other Greek mystery cults.

"Isis." Encyclopædia Britannica. Encyclopædia Britannica, 2009.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/295449/Isis


I must mention that the "seafarers" were the "Israelites".
You can tell by breaking down the Hebrew word for seafarer

יורד-ים (seafarer)
sailor, seaman

יורד
v. to go down, descend, drop; get off someone's back
adj. going down, descending, dropping, declining, decreasing, waning, regressive, retrogressive, downward; iambic (poetry)
n. emigrant (from Israel) ; impoverished
v. be brought down, lowered; reduced; removed

יור
Teach

יו
Greek (language)


Anyway, the answer is Mary and I am sticking to it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Osiris II
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1752

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Among so many statements that are laughable, this was a glaring error:

I must mention that the "seafarers" were the "Israelites".

The "seafarers" mentioned were not Israelite, but Phoenicians.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yhvh
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris II wrote:
Among so many statements that are laughable, this was a glaring error:

I must mention that the "seafarers" were the "Israelites".

The "seafarers" mentioned were not Israelite, but Phoenicians.



Where did the Hebrew alefbet originate? Was it not from the Phoenician alphabet?

The number of letters in the Hebrew alphabet, their order, their names, and their phonetic values are virtually identical to those of the Aramaic alphabet, as both Hebrews and Arameans borrowed the Phoenician alphabet for their uses during the end of the 2nd millennium BCE.

Read the Amariel Family Oral History about the Hebrew / Phoenician seafarers.

http://amarielfamily.tripod.com/1.htm


"What needs to be made abolutely clear is the fact that what is called ancient Hebrew is nothing more than Canaanite Phoenician. The Hebrews adopted Phoenician as their own language, or, in other words, that what is called [ancient] Hebrew language was in fact "the language of Canaan." It is not merely poetic but literal and in the philological truth. One of the proofs for is taken from the Bible itself: Isaiah 19:18 says "In that day five cities in Egypt will speak the language of Canaan and swear allegiance to the LORD Almighty. One of them will be called the City of Destruction -- City of the Sun (that is, Heliopolis)"

Source: John McClintock, Cyclopaedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris, were you thinking of the sea people? I think some people equate the sea people from the new kingdom (Merenptah etc) with the Phoenicians.

For as far as the seafarers mentioned as being protected by Isis: I don't see that as having anything to do with the Phoenicians or Hebrews. This dates from a time that it seems to just refer to people who travel the seas. Isis was a patroness just as later St Nicolas was the patron saint of sea farers.

And all of this has very little to do with the identity of the mother of Horus.

Egyptian mythology changed a bit over time and also from place to place. So there may be diferent gods and goddesses associated with Horus depending on the time and the place.
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ceeeeg
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 27 Mar 2009
Posts: 5
Location: North East, USA

PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

in the beginning, i had difficulty sorting out the vast pantheon of Egyptian gods and goddess and the common occurances of seemingly contradictory associations amongst them...

but my recent studies have made these difficulties become clearer and more coherent...let me share some observations with you...

it seems that the Egyptians had no difficulty holding a variety of viewpoints, religiously speaking, that seem to contradict each other...but some common themes come through, themes that help to answer the question that opened this thread along with many other similar queries regarding the deities...

for a long while now there has been a debate raging amongst scholars about whether Egyptian religion was a precursor to monotheism as we understand it today, or if it was a polytheisitc religion run rampant with this veritable multitude of deities...

one current school of thought that holds water for me, is that, rather than an either/or question, it's more of a 'both' sort of answer, if you will...

this school of thought puts forth the idea that, in fact, there is a 'one God,' that this God was hidden, unknowable and unfathomable and that out of that 'God' came the others...and that those 'others' are, in fact, meant to represent individual aspects of the one God...hmmm...how to say it?...they were aspects of this unknowable God broken down into digestible pieces that represented aspects of the God, such as warlike, motherhood/nurturance, agricultural, etc...these pieces were then given shape and identity in order to make them accessible to worshippers

so when we see a composite of deities, these composities are not 'gods' in the sense we understand them today, but are combinations of various aspects of 'God' that were given names, titles, and were worshipped, not so much as individualistic entities, but as emanations of the one God manifested in the many gods...

this may explain the rise of supreme 'God's, such as Amun, or under Akhnaten, the Aten, both acknowledged as being omniescient, unknowable, supreme...in Amun's case, he was ofttimes 'combined' with other 'gods', such as Re, resulting in Amun-Re, but this was less about absorbing lesser deities and more to do with emphasizing, in this particular example, the solar associations of Re and then supersizing those associations by linking them to the supreme power of 'God'....this explains the near constant references to Gods such as Amun, as 'the One and the Many,' etc...

the ancient Egyptians were codifiers...while their religion seems, on the surface, to be complex and overcomplicated, in fact, it was far more simplistic than we suppose...their 'pantheism' was in fact, a code developed over millenia for the furtherance of a relationship with a supreme and unfathomable God...

for further reading on the subject, i recommend The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt, by Richard H. Wilkinson, which gives a concise but detailed accounting of the concept, as well as an excellent encyclopedia of the pantheon...

[/code][/url]
_________________
...religion is for those on their way to hell...spirituality is for those that have been there and back...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Osiris II
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1752

PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke, I agree with you completely regarding Isis being a patron of the seafarers. I'm sure, she along with several other god and goddesses were prayed to, for protection while making sea voyages.
The Sea Peoples, on the other hand, have never been properly identified, but seem to be a coalition of several different groups of peoples, intent on invading Egypt. I found this doing a web search, and it is fairly accurate, in my opinion:
The situation regarding the identification of the Sea Peoples is more complicated than you might realize. The major problem is that we only have sketchy written records of their attacks on the established cultures of Egypt and the Near East, and these give only a vague idea of where they came from. Also, as the name suggests, they were a group of distinct peoples of diverse origins, not a single culture. Archaeologists have put some pieces of the puzzle together, but there are still some big gaps in our knowledge of them which will never be filled.

The Egyptians originally coined the name "Peoples of the Sea" for the foreign contingents that the Libyans brought in to support their attack on Egypt in c. 1220 BC during the reign of Pharaoh Merneptah. In the records of that war, five Sea Peoples are named: the Shardana, Teresh, Lukka, Shekelesh and Ekwesh, and are collectively referred to as "northerners coming from all lands". The evidence for their exact origins is extremely sparse, but archaeologists specializing in this period have proposed the following:

The Shardana may have originated in northern Syria, but later moved to Cyprus and probably eventually ended up as the Sardinians.

The Teresh and Lukka were probably from western Anatolia, and may correspond to the ancestors of the later Lydians and Lycians, respectively. However, the Teresh may also have been the people later known to the Greeks as the Tyrsenoi, i.e., the Etruscans, and already familiar to the Hittites as the Taruisa, which latter is suspiciously similar to the Greek Troia. I won't speculate on how this fits in with the Aeneas legend.

The Shekelesh may correspond to the Sikels of Sicily. The Ekwesh have been identified with the Ahhiyawa of Hittite records, who were almost certainly Achaean Greeks colonizing the western coast of Anatolia, as well as the Aegean Islands, etc.

As you can see, they weren't one group, but many.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the info about the sea people Osiris.

Such a variety of people is rather interesting. I wonder what made them look toward the south. It could have just been opportunism and a wish for riches, or it may have been that other things drove them from their homelands?

I have some really vague memory of watching a documentary about something like this. LOL I cannot for the life of me remember any details. Just that there was a coalition of groups that due to problems at the homefront cast an eye on other people's property. I'm not sure if it was supposed to be about the sea people or another time period Confused
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Mythology and Religion All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group