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KV55 - Akhenaten or Smakhkare?
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freeTinker
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:42 pm    Post subject: KV55 - Akhenaten or Smakhkare? Reply with quote

This seems to remain a hotly debated subject, can I ask what you think? - is the mummy Akhnaton or Smenkhkare or someone else?
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smenkhkhara!
If it is ever positively id'ed as him, it will completely destroy the Smenkhkhara-Nefertiti theories, because the skeleton has been definitely identified as that of a male.
There has been so much mis-information published concerning the skeleton. At times, it has been positively identified as a young male; at other times it has been "proved" that it is a male around 50.
When first discovered, it was claimed to be a female. They thought that the remains were that of Queen Tiye. In fact, until his death the dilettante who finance the dig insisted that it was Tiye.
The "magic bricks" of Akhenaten were found in the tomb. The coffin had been altered from that of a woman, but all identification had been removed.
It's really one of the big mysteries, among quite a few others, from the Amarna Period. The succession up to Akhnaten is clear, but after him, quite muddled, until we get into the 19th Dynasty.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:46 am    Post subject: Perhaps since this have been overplayed - change to Tutu? Reply with quote

I am sorry, pls accept my apologies, I should have looked around the site here more (me being new). I do not want to overplay this subject and I now see that there are a zillion posts and subjects on this matter. It came up in another post and I was trying to keep that post on track... well, I meant well!

Just for the record, I tend to subscribe to the 'theory', although I would argue that it is more of a proof, that the KV55 question has been answered for a long time now... preponderance of evidence pointing to KV55 mummy being Akhnaton

To take it further, and just my subscribed opinion - line of accession being:

Coregency; Akhnaton and Nefertiti

Regency; Nefertiti as king Smenkhare taking Meritaten as Great Royal Wife (to legitimize reign)

Coregency; Smenkhare and Tut

Regency; Tut > Ay... and so on

----

Perhaps I can save the thread by (changing the subject) asking the question about Tutu? - I believe it is Southern Tomb #8, Armarna, ref; 'Chamberlain' Tutu, recorded titles: First Servant of Neferkherprure-waenre in the House of the Aten; First Servant of Neferkherprure-waenre in the wia-barque; Overseer of all craftsmen of the Lord of the Two Lands; Overseer of all the works of his majesty; Overseer of silver and gold of the Lord of the Two Lands; Overseer of the Treasury of the Aten in the house of the Aten; Chief spokesman of the Entire Land (titles lifted from, Nicholas Reeves - Egypt's False Prophet Akhenaten)

I have always kinda subscribed to this Tutu being Tutankhamun, or rather Tutankhaten? - does anyone have any position, facts or info on this?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Perhaps since this have been overplayed - change to Tutu Reply with quote

freeTinker wrote:
I do not want to overplay this subject and I now see that there are a zillion posts and subjects on this matter. It came up in another post and I was trying to keep that post on track... well, I meant well!

Very Happy The gesture was appreciated (by the moderator at least). There are so many discussions that it's easy to overlook one (or 2, or 3 ...)

freeTinker wrote:
Just for the record, I tend to subscribe to the 'theory', although I would argue that it is more of a proof, that the KV55 question has been answered for a long time now... preponderance of evidence pointing to KV55 mummy being Akhnaton

There are quite a few people who claim the're's a preponderance of evidence showing it's Smenkhare.

I'm not sure what to think to be honest. You can find experts claiming it's a young persona and experts claiming it's an older person.

freeTinker wrote:
To take it further, and just my subscribed opinion - line of accession being:
Coregency; Akhnaton and Nefertiti
Regency; Nefertiti as king Smenkhare taking Meritaten as Great Royal Wife (to legitimize reign)
Coregency; Smenkhare and Tut
Regency; Tut > Ay... and so on

I think it's now commonly accepted that Smenkhare and Nefertiti are not to be identified and that Smenkhare is different from the female ruler named Neferneferuaten.

Without any proof, I can give my impressions:
Akhenaten -> Smenkhare -> Nefernefruaten (regent?) -> Tutankhamen -> Aye

freeTinker wrote:
Perhaps I can save the thread by (changing the subject) asking the question about Tutu? - I believe it is Southern Tomb #8, Armarna, ref; 'Chamberlain' Tutu, recorded titles: First Servant of Neferkherprure-waenre in the House of the Aten; First Servant of Neferkherprure-waenre in the wia-barque; Overseer of all craftsmen of the Lord of the Two Lands; Overseer of all the works of his majesty; Overseer of silver and gold of the Lord of the Two Lands; Overseer of the Treasury of the Aten in the house of the Aten; Chief spokesman of the Entire Land (titles lifted from, Nicholas Reeves - Egypt's False Prophet Akhenaten)

I have always kinda subscribed to this Tutu being Tutankhamun, or rather Tutankhaten? - does anyone have any position, facts or info on this?


I find that very very unlikely. Tutu was a nobleman and never caimed to be a king's son. When Tutu was active, Tutankhaten was just a little boy. And there are honorary titles but the descriptions of Tutu are a bit much for what would have at that point be a toddler if he were to be identified as Tutankhamen.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could Smenkhare not remain being Nefertiti, and Nefernefruaten actually be the elusive Meritaten? taking over as regent after the demise of Nefertiti(Smenk)- it really is so confusing this Armarna stuff, as others... I just dunno what to think. Egyptian Dreams, I now realise... what good name for this site! ha!

Does anyone know of a good 18th dynasty family tree? - there is one on Wikipedia but... or maybe that is a task for... well, here!

On the Tutu matter, is there any record of a burial/mummy somewhere, anywhere? (yet). His titles sounded very grand, even if titular in form only (ie; could have been an 'important' child), with AY running things perhaps behind the scenes - but I gotta admit my thinking was clouded by the older work by Arthur Weigall - I gotta remember he wrote his stuff a long time ago now. I do like his 'romatisism' about Akhenaten though... he saw Akhnaton as I would wish him to have been, if ya know what I mean?

I guess 'the truth' just needs 'dreamed' into existence
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a family tree of the 17th and 18th dynasties:

http://wysinger.homestead.com/seqenenra.html
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best 18th dynasty family tree is probably the one assembled by Dodson and Hilton in their book The Complete Royal Families of Ancient Egypt: A Genealogical Sourcebook of the Pharaohs
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it is really just the amarna period were the genealogies are confusing. but there is no real evidence to say akhenaten had any sons. but that is expected from egyptians. i read somewhere that egyptian rulers flaunted their daughters and kept their sons out of public view. i think it may have been in nefertiti, by joyce tyldesley.

as for kv 55, it is a mess. most people want the mummy to be akhenaten.
the fact that remains were found in his own sarcophagus at amarna seem to be conveniently forgotten. the fact that the mummy comes up as younger than 35 more times than it does over 35 seems to be ignored as well.

who knows when the names were destroyed on the artifacts? they could have been done at burial, in the reign after, ie horemheb, or it could have been done in a later ramesside reign when someone was excavating a tomb, and stumbled across the tomb.

it seems to me, that a few amarna people were either buried there, or their equipment was reused for a minor member of the royal line.
i believe it is smenkahre. the evidence doesn't fit for akhenaten. i believe his mummy was the one the amarna villagers discovered in 1822.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
it is really just the amarna period were the genealogies are confusing.

Not quite.

1. How many Queen Ahhoteps are there? It ranges from 1 to 3 according to whose articles you read.

2. Who was Tuthmosis I's father? And was Queen Ahmose - a king's sister - a full sister to Tuthmosis I or maybe to another king?

3. Who is Queen Sitkamose? A daughter of Kamose as her name suggests or a daughter of Ahmmose?

4. Who were the parents of some of Tuthmosis III's wives? We know Merytre-Hatshepsut's mother was Huy, but what about her father? Where did Satiah come from? Did Tuthmosis III marry Neferure? If so were there any children?

5. Who was Amenhotep II's great royal wife during his reign? There is no royal woman except for his mother attested from during his reign. He had plenty of children. Who were the mothers and what was their status?

6. Is Queen Mutnodjemet really Nefertiti's sister? There's really no direct proof of that conjecture.

Plenty of mysteries to go around. Very Happy

And I'm sure there are more puzzles than the ones I came up with off the top of my head.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This might be cleaner...



Shall post credits when I track source
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen that one before. It's not quite complete.

I have info on my website click here for more information.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thx for the link (that's where it should have stopped)- and; oh! my goodness! - great queen! beloved of the son of the sun etc., - life, health, prosperity and so on and so forth(in His name) to you; I grovel with my face in the dirt, and so on., you must have spent lifetimes, upon lifetimes, putting your site together- and thx I will make use of your energies... knowledge vs. wisdom is where, (preference) I would like to make journey, and set sail for next I think... but what happened to senemut? - i find no record (or interest)

Whatsoever be in a person's heart, so be-it their truth - why yet, and still... do so many concern themselves with earthly concern when their heart truly knoweth that thine own self be master of thine own destiny and enternity?

Anyway... thx again; too much red wine for me tonight - I think! ha!

That must be the longest 'thx' I have ever wrote... thx!

So, eh... what happened to Senemut?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Perhaps since this have been overplayed - change to Tutu Reply with quote

anneke wrote:

Without any proof, I can give my impressions:
Akhenaten -> Smenkhare -> Nefernefruaten (regent?) -> Tutankhamen -> Aye


Not quite. It's

Akhenaten --> "King Neferneferuaten" --> Smenkhkare --->Tutankhamun-->Aye.

Allen [2006] argues that "King Neferneferuaten" = Akhenaten's and Nefertiti's daughter, Neferneferuaten-Tasherit. Gabolde [1998] argues "King Neferneferuaten" is Meritaten. Samson (1978), Harris (1973), et al. first argued the independent existence of a "King Neferneferuaten" and argue it was Nefertiti. But today the feeling among most Egyptologists is that "King Neferneferuaten" may have been a daughter rather than wife of Akhenaten.

But it's clear that the throne name/anx-xprw-ra/ belonged first to "King Neferneferuaten" and then to Smenkhkare, not the other way around.

See:

Allen, J. 1994. Nefertiti and Smenkh-ka-re. Göttinger Miszellen 141: 7-17.

_____. 2006. The Amarna Succession. In Causing His Name to Live: Studies in Egyptian Epigraphy and History in Memory of William J. Murnane. (Online as PDF).

Ertman, E. L. 1992. Is There Visual Evidence for a 'King' Nefertiti? Amarna Letters (San Francisco) 2: 50-55.

Gabolde, M. 1998. D'Akhenaton à Tutânkhamon. Collection de l'Institut d'Archaeologie et d'Histoire de l'Antiquite 3. Lyon/Paris: Universite Lumiere-Lyon 2, Institut d'Archaeologie et d'Histoire de l'Antiquite/Diffusion de Boccard.

Harris, J. R. 1973. Nefertiti rediviva. Acta Orientalia [Copenhagen] 35: 5-13.

_________. 1973. Nefernefruaten. Göttinger Miszellen 4: 15-17.

Samson, J. 1978. Amarna. City of Akhenaten and Nefertiti. Nefertiti as Pharaoh. Warminster: Aris & Phillips Ltd.

Strijbos, J.C. 1993. Koning Semenechkare. De Ibis (Amsterdam) 18: 88-98.

HTH.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But it's clear that the throne name/anx-xprw-ra/ belonged first to "King Neferneferuaten" and then to Smenkhkare, not the other way around.


I'm surprised by that statement. I always thought the relative chronology of these individuals was still up in the air.

If true that raises the question about the graffiti in the Theban tomb of Pairi mentioning a year 3 of Neferneferuaten and the mention of a temple (mortuary????) for that individual.

That would mean the temples in Thebes were not as abandoned as Tutankhamen would like us to believe in his restoration stela. Then again, that text always sounded a bit too much like propaganda anyways Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry in advance my my pedantic approach to this, I am trying to ease myself into understanding the Amarna era and find myself returning to Amenhotep III. I want to understand his reign before jumping into the 'soup' that is Armarna - and I have some thoughts on that, but I will wait for now, other than saying where is the 'evidence' of the reign actually passing from Amenhotep III to Amenhotep IV(Akhnaton)?

I have read your site (re; Amenhotep III) anneke (again I think it is brilliant) and studied other sources, and I am confused by the role of the queens, specifically Sitamen. Her parentage seems unclear and the speculation that she was daughter of Tuthmosis IV is only that, speculation

I am under the impression that the legitimization of kingship passed through the female line? - would this not mean that Sitamen would NEED (through necessity) to be daughter of Tuthmosis IV?

Should I have posted this in a new thread? - please feel free to move it
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