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Hyksos- Fact or Fiction?
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AsianIsraelites
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:49 pm    Post subject: Listing those identified as Hyksos Kings Reply with quote

I suppose some of those listed as Hyksos Kings have multiple names?

Any way, how about

a) A list of all identified as Hyksos
b) The source of ancient Egyptian text there they are mentioned

Some of them may be mentioned in more than one papyrus / tomb what ever
Name
Source
Source

i.e.
Sakir-Har mentioned on a door jamb in Avaris.

A list of each person identified as a Hyskos king and all the sources they are identified in.

We need to look at the original sources and the whole context or images of each identified hyksos
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Listing those identified as Hyksos Kings Reply with quote

AsianIsraelites wrote:
I suppose some of those listed as Hyksos Kings have multiple names?
Any way, how about
a) A list of all identified as Hyksos
b) The source of ancient Egyptian text there they are mentioned
Some of them may be mentioned in more than one papyrus / tomb what ever
Name
Source
Source

i.e.
Sakir-Har mentioned on a door jamb in Avaris.

A list of each person identified as a Hyskos king and all the sources they are identified in.
We need to look at the original sources and the whole context or images of each identified hyksos


I think it's wonderful idea that you find these resources.
I have indicated in my posts where you can find such information.

I think it would greatly help you understand the greater picture.

This would be a good place to start.
It will be a bit of work, but I think it will be worth your while.
Have fun Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:31 pm    Post subject: Hyksos adopted the Egyptian language? Reply with quote

The earlier Hyksos - as mentioned by kmt-sesh - referred to themselves as heqa khasut.
///

So far I have not seen any ancient text in which the hykos were supposed to have written.
What I have seen so far is from the fingers/perspective of Egyptian writers

1 What heiroglyph text of the hyksos do you refer to ?
====================

I have not seen invaders take control of a language and adopt the language of the people.

When the Greeks conquered Egypt, Greek text is found through out ancient Egypt.

When the Romans conquered Egypt, Latin text is found through out Egypt.

Isn't it funny how the hyksos "adopted" the language of the Egyptians, were driven out and where ever they returned, there is not any massive amounts of heiroglyphic text found in the place they went to

NOR is there any ancient text in Canaan, Syria, Jordan, Turkey, Saudi, Iran or Iraq from any people who told how they / their ancestors werre driven out of Egypt?

Are we to believe some 'advanced' population invaded Egypt and they had no language of their own?

Are we to believe in the century.. centuries what ever time they were there, they did not write any text about the events that was going on?

Other than the possibility that all the players were Egyptians, why wouldn't these invading rulers write any thing about themselves in their own language or the language of the Egyptians?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AsianIsraelites wrote:
Quote:
#1 Was every one of them a ruler? Looks like some of them would be the majority
who were being ruled? Any way you say that what looks like farmers, are ALL
identified as rulers?


I misidentified that hieroglyphic caption. It's not HKA-xAswt but HKA-xAst, singular.

It refers specifically to the man directly below the caption. With HKA-xAst the artist was calling the man in the depiction "foreign ruler," that is, the leader of the Asiatic migrants shown on the wall.

The more important aspect of my argument with this tomb scene was to disqualify your earlier statement that the term "Hyksos" and the idea of the Hyksos was not recorded until some 300 years after the fact. This particular Dynasty 12 tombs shows that the Hyksos were arriving in Egypt long before they managed to take hold of the north.

This is in direct opposition to what the Egyptians themselves later recorded: that the Hyksos were a brutal invading force that swept down into Egypt and conquered the Two Lands. In reality it was a slow progression to power in Lower Egypt, brought on by waves of migration.

Quote:
#2 How does foreign translate into Canaanites?


"Canaanite" is a generic term for peoples of Syro-Palastine. It identifies a wide range of peoples living in the Levant in the Bronze Age. They had very similar spoken dialects for the most part, and were culturally similar overall, but were not one big, cohesive polity. The material culture of the Hyksos reflects this and demonstrates their Syro-Palestinian origins, in particular southern Palestinian. In short, all of these Asiatics were considered foreigners to the Egyptians.

Quote:
#3 I have already addressed the cermaic caper and challenged the cermaic experts
to respond to my questions.. maybe you can do that.


I missed that and am not sure where it is. Can you direct me to the page in this thread on which your argument can be found?

For now I'll say I don't know how you can argue against the ceramic evidence. It is scientific fact. It's based on the scientific method, which means anyone can rerun the tests to check accuracy. And this has been done.

Quote:
#4 If I remember right, the southern part of what is now called Israel in the past..
was divided into Philistinia and Egypt. The present day Egypt map is not that of the
beginning.


This period (about 1,600 BCE) predates what you're referring to. Philistia is a term that comes along much later but refers, of course, to the Philistines, who were probably settled there by Ramesses III (Dynasty 20) after the Sea Peoples' invasion of Egypt failed.

Up into Dynasty 17 Syro-Palestine was distinctly separate from Egypt. I'm not talking about modern maps at all. It wasn't until Dynasty 18, probably starting with the campaigns of Tuthmosis I, that this began to change considerably. And only after the campaigns of Tuthmosis III were the Levant and portions of Syria brought under direct Egyptian control.

It didn't last, however, because Egypt never placed a lasting presence in the Levant. There were always uprisings, and other civilizations rising to try to take control. In the next dynasty, when Ramesses II concluded a peace treaty with Hatti, the Levant was divided between the Egyptians and Hittites.

Quote:
#1 Where is this tomb located... we will need a close up of that wall.

#2 Where can we see an image of this painting and any surrounding text to see what
is written.

#3 I see no Khnumhotep II, do you mean Amenhotep II


No, I mean Khnumhotep II. He was not a king but a nobleman who lived in Dynasty 12 (Middle Kingdom). The tomb is very well known and is at a site called Beni Hasan. You can use Google images to see plenty of photographs of that particular wall.
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AsianIsraelites
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:27 pm    Post subject: Who did the Hyksos rule Reply with quote

I know there may be post waiting for my reply, but they only have dial up in my area. Most of the time my modem connects at 26.4 k... not even 56k.

I wait till there is enough post here to create a complete section 1 2 3 4 ...
Then I copy all of the post on that page so I can disect them later.
===========

Now who did the Hyksos rule
The Hyksos drove ALL of the Egyptians to the south and hung out in the north by themselves or

The Hyksos whipped the military and ruled over the population.. like Germany over France, the British over one of their holdings...
How could the Hyksos adopt the gods, language, culture of the Egyptians, if they drove them all out of northern Egypt?

First you have to decide if
a) the Hyksos drove all the Egyptians out and only had Hyksos there or
b) the Egyptian population remained and were under the thumb of the Hyksos rulers.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:36 pm    Post subject: What kind of empire could the hyksos have been Reply with quote

In the empires of ancient times, they were not trying to settle a new land area.
The object of an empire was to take your military force, wipe out any government force that resisted your demands, place your puppets in that land and make the population tributaries/slaves. (which would send their wealth back to the rulers of the empire.
=============================

When a political power sends settlers to squat on the land and send the goodies back to the rulers, that does not work too well some times... like an event where the king of England lost his interest in a place called America.
=============================

The stories of the bible are a little different than most, because the top boss told the settlers they had to kill all the natives and drive them out... but it never happened.

JOSHUA 15:63, JOSHUA 17:12, JUDGES 1:21, JUDGES 1:27, JUDGES 1:29,
JUDGES 1:30, JUDGES 1:31, JUDGES 1:32, JUDGES 1:33

It seems that all those who were supposed to be driven out, lived smack dab in the middle of them.

Not only did they not drive them out, but they swapped sons and daughters in marriage
Judges 3:5 And the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, Hittites, and Amorites, and Perizzites, and Hivites, and Jebusites:
Judges 3:6 And they took their daughters to be their wives, and gave their daughters to their sons,

How close did the natives live to the Israelites... 2 Samuel 11:2 ... Here David had a next door neighbor who was a Hittite.
=============================
Empires like the Romans did not settle the lands they conquered, but they took political control and the population through out their empire paid tribute.. became slave labor.

There is no profit in going into a land and killing every one or driving them away.
The workings of an empire is to force the population to gather it's natural resources and use it's labor to create wealth for the conquers.
=============================

In empires like Rome, Britain.. they were able to control vast populations a hundred times greater than their own. Once they smacked down the politicians, only symbolic military forces were left in the land to keep them in line.

The Hyksos or any other empire did not have to travel to Egypt to obtain all the farming land, grazing land they could possibly use. What would they want in Egypt ... except to force the population to be their tributaries.
=============================

Why is it essential to decide if the Egyptian population remained in their homes?
If the Egyptian population remained there to be tributaries, then there would be no way to guess what artifacts was made by whom.

We can also look at the "innovations" attributed to the Hyksos and see how many centuries before their supposed appearance, these products were being made through out Mesopotamia.

We can look at all products made in Canaan.. through out Asia and see how unique they were.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:05 am    Post subject: Who's trash bin are "Egyptologist" diggin in? Reply with quote

HYK-Whos-dump-is-it

If you don't like the time line of this guy's web page, use your own, it will come out the same.
=============================
The Old Kingdom 1st Dynasty 3I00 - 2890 BC
Narmer, Aha, Djer, Djet, Den, Anedjib, Semerkhet...
=============================
The Second Intermediate Period
15th Dynasty 1650-1550 BC
Depending on what "expert's" web page you look at, the Hyksos started coming to Egypt.. let's be nice and say 1700 BC
=============================
3100 BC to 1700 BC = 1,400 years Egyptians were hanging out in Egypt before the Hyksos invaded.
=============================
18th Dynasty 1550-1295 BC
Ahmose drove out the Hyksos .. say 1290 BC

That would leave 1290 years BC before the year zero
=============================
a) Egyptians lived there 1400 years before the Hyksos

b) Egyptian population lived there and were ruled by the Hyksos for 200 years
or
b) Hyksos drove the Egyptians out and lived there by themselves for 200 years.

c) Egyptians lived there for an additional 1290 years BC

Being very conservative, let's just say the Egyptian population was booted out and the Hykso had the land all to themselves.. and being very conservative, let's say the Egyptians only lived in the north of Egypt 2000 years.

In this hypothetical story the Egyptians would have lived there 1400 years before the Hyksos and 600 years after they were dispersed.

Now let's go to the ruins and begin our dig, when you start finding artifacts of populations that lived in that area for 2000 years (Egyptians long before and long after) how you gonna tell who's trash/artifacts you are digging up?
=============================
You can look at dozens of web pages who copy stuff out of the books of the "experts" and find they may disagree by centuries, but any numbers you use as your variables, the Egyptians were there centuries before and after the "Hyksos".

Looks like the most of those artifacts would have belonged to the Egyptians and if the Egyptians lived their in the Hyksos period, any artifacts of any Hyksos would not have amounted to a pile of beans.

So why do "Egyptologist" label the stuff they find in that dump/dig as Hyksos artifacts... you tell me.
=============================

A fun experiment would be to plant some artifacts from Iran or Greece in one of those digs and see what the experts identified them as.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is going to far.

No one has any problems with the existence of the Hyksos except you.

Any real research given is either dismissed for some fictitious reason or ignored. This is a waste of time of the regular members of the board.

This is alternative history (if we are generous in our assessment). As I have mentioned this is not the board to do this. As a matter of fact that type of fringe theory is not really appropriate here.

This thread is closed.
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