Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Horus - Seth myths
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Mythology and Religion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should note that from what people told me on wikipedia Tarset is a different reading of the name usually read as Betrest or Batirytes, Betresh.

Grajetzki includes the hieroglyphs for Batires in his book about the Queens of Egypt.

Grajetzki: Batires is the wife of Den and mother of Semerkhet. She seems to be mentioned on the Palermo Stone. Here Semerkhet is conjectured to be a (half-?) brother of Anedjib.

Dodson & Hilton: Render the name Batirytes and conjecture she's a wife of Adjib (=Anedjib). Batyrites is the mother of Semerkhet.

Tyldesley: Only mentions that Batyrites is the Mother of Semerket and does not speculate on who her husband may be.

Petrie in 1923 thought the name Batyrites should be read as Tarset.

Considering that Tarset is an alternative reading of Batyrites, the name has absolutely nothing to do with Seth Very Happy
Goes to show that linguistically the "it sounds/looks like argument" is completely useless. Even though the "set" part in Tarset may look to us like Seth, the original glyphs look nothing like the glyphs in the word for the god Seth. So my comment above (from 6 years ago) is null and void Very Happy

So all we can say is that according to the archaeological record Batyrites is the mother of King Semerkhet. The identity of her husband is not known. Speculation about his identity ranges from Adjib to Den.
There is known information at all regarding the possible parentage of Batyrites herself.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
elakazal
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 27 Apr 2010
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because it's so short, it would probably be easy to read "set" into a lot of places that have nothing to do with the god, especially given the lack of vowels in hieroglyphs and the fact that feminine words all end in "t".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hathorhotep
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 08 Apr 2010
Posts: 431
Location: Zagreb, Croatia

PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will wrote on Tarset's talk page on wikipedia. See you. But please don't delete article yet.
_________________
Beloved of Great Hathor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Hathorhotep
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 08 Apr 2010
Posts: 431
Location: Zagreb, Croatia

PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now I know that Tarset is just another reading of Betrest's name. Thanks to you. I was thinking before that Anedjib had two wives. Very Happy
_________________
Beloved of Great Hathor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy Nice piece of work now! With Udimu's help the entry turned out very nice indeed. Turned into a 3-person project ...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hathorhotep
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 08 Apr 2010
Posts: 431
Location: Zagreb, Croatia

PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why is there so much queens with name Neith? One queen was called just that - Neith. She was wife of some king of 5th dynasty.
_________________
Beloved of Great Hathor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Ranoferhotep
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 1197
Location: Ghent (Gent - Belgium)

PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hathorhotep wrote:
Why is there so much queens with name Neith? One queen was called just that - Neith. She was wife of some king of 5th dynasty.


Neith was one of the oldest Goddesses of A.E.. As kings identified them with God’s, Queens could do that with Goddesses. And Neith was in early times very popular.

Some information about Neith:

http://www.egyptianmyths.net/neith.htm
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
neseret
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 1032
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ranoferhotep wrote:
Hathorhotep wrote:
Why is there so much queens with name Neith? One queen was called just that - Neith. She was wife of some king of 5th dynasty.


Neith was one of the oldest Goddesses of A.E.. As kings identified them with God’s, Queens could do that with Goddesses. And Neith was in early times very popular.

Some information about Neith:

http://www.egyptianmyths.net/neith.htm


Neith was far more than simply a goddess for queens: she was the national goddess of the north, and counterpart to Ptah during the Old Kingdom. She is also considered the eldest of the creator deities.

Neith is one of the most ancient deities associated with ancient Egyptian culture. Flinders Petrie noted the earliest depictions of her standards were known in predynastic periods, as can be seen from a representation of a barque bearing her crossed arrow standards in the Predynastic Period. Her first anthropomorphic representations occur in the early dynastic period, can be seen in the representation from the diorite vase of King Ny-Netjer of the Second Dynasty, found in the Step Pyramid of Djoser (Third Dynasty) as Saqqara. That her worship predominated the early dynastic periods is shown by a preponderance of theophoric names (personal names which incorporate the name of a deity) within which Neith appears as an element. Predominance of Neith’s name in nearly forty percent of early dynastic names, and particularly in the names of four royal women of the First Dynasty, only emphasizes the importance of this goddess in relation to the early society of Egypt, with special emphasis upon the Royal House.

For a full discussion of the predominance of the goddess during the early and very late dynastic periods, see Ramadan el-Sayed, La Déese Neith de Saïs: Importance et rayonnement de son cult, (IFAO, Cairo, 1982), and Peter Kaplony, Die Inschriften der ägyptischen Frühzeit, (Wiesbaden, 1963), considered the standard reference for study of predynastic names.

It has been theorized Neith's primary cult point in the Old Kingdom was established in Saïs (modern Sa el-Hagar) by Hor-Aha of the First Dynasty, in an effort to placate the residents of Lower Egypt by the ruler of the unified country. It appears from textual/iconographic evidence she was something of a national goddess for Old Kingdom Egypt, with her own sanctuary in Memphis indicated the political high regard held for her, where she was known as "North of her Wall," as counterpoise to Ptah’s "South of his Wall" epithet. While Neith is generally regarded as a deity of Lower Egypt, her worship was not consistently located in that region(*). Her cult reached its height in Saïs and apparently in Memphis in the Old Kingdom, and remained important, though to a lesser extent, in the Middle and New Kingdom.

An analysis of her attributes shows she was a goddess with many roles. From predynastic and early dynasty periods, she was referred to as "Opener of the Ways" (/wp wA.wt/) which may have referred not only to her leadership in hunting and war, but also as a psychopomp in cosmic and underworld pathways. The main imagery of Neith as /wp wA.wt/ was as deity of the unseen and limitless sky, as opposed to Nut and Hathor, who represented the manifested night and day skies, respectively. As the "Opener of the Sun’s paths in all her stations" refers to how the sun is reborn (due to seasonal changes) at various points in the sky, beyond this world, of which only a glimpse is revealed prior to dawn and after sunset. It is at these changing points that Neith reigns as a form of sky goddess, where the sun rises and sets daily, or at its ‘first appearance’ to the sky above and below. It is at these points, beyond the sky that is seen, that her true power as deity who creates life is manifested.

References to Neith as the "Opener of Paths" occurs in Dynasties 4 through 6, and is seen in the titularies of women serving as priestesses of the goddess. Such epithets include: "Priestess of Neith who opens all the (path)ways," "Priestess of Neith who opens the good pathways," "Priestess of Neith who opens the way in all her places." (el-Sayed, 1982: 67-69). el-Sayed hypothesizes perhaps Neith should be seen as a feminine doublet of Wepwawet, the ancient jackal-god of Upper Egypt, who was associated with both royalty in victory and as a psychopomp for the dead. For more information on Wepwawet, as a deity and the characteristics as an epithet, see George Hart, Dictionary of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses, (Routledge, London), 1986.

George St. Clair, Creation Records,(London, 1898): 177-178 discusses Neith's aspect as the "upper sky." St. Clair held that Neith is shown at
times as a goddess with a line of stars across her back (as opposed to Nut’s representations with stars across the belly) and maintains this indicates the ancient goddess represents the full ecliptic circle around the sky (above and below), and is seen iconographically in texts as both the regular and the inverted determinative for the heavenly vault, indicating the cosmos below the horizon. St. Clair maintained it is this realm Neith personifies, for she is the complete sky which surrounds the upper (Nut) and lower (Nunet?) sky, and which exists beyond the horizon, and thereby beyond the skies themselves. Neith, then, is that portion of the cosmos which is not seen, and in which the sun is reborn daily, below the horizon (for the statement assigned to Neith is "I come at dawn and at sunset daily").

This theory may be borne out with the actual position of the stars of the ancient Egyptian sky. Karine Gadre, an archaeoastronomer from Revel, France has indicated the following:

The period of invisibility of the decanal stars listed on the sarcophagus dating from the First Intermediate Period, and on the ceiling or on the walls of tombs and temples dating from the New Kingdom, is close to 70 days. That means that such stars should belong to a belt (the decanal belt, as defined by Neugebauer and Parker), situated south of the ecliptic.

Some of these stars also belong to the Milky Way, which, in fact, is a view of our own galaxy. Here periodically occurs the birth of new stars, the death of old ones. Its white color is due to the presence of these molecular clouds whose collapse give birth to stars, and to the presence of numerous stars as well.

The Milky Way intersects the ecliptic line in two points, the two equinoctial points. The stars situated close to one or the other positions occupied by the sun, on spring or autumn equinoxes, therefore belong to this intersection, to this specific region. Under the reign of the Egyptian pharaohs, the constellations of Taurus and Scorpius were occupied by the sun, on spring and autumn equinoxes respectively. The stars belonging to the constellations of Taurus and Scorpius therefore belonged to the Milky Way, too.

As long as the sun is situated 18 degrees below the terrestrial horizon, the sky is completely dark: you can see each one of the celestial object shining in the nightly sky. But when the height of the sun below the horizon becomes superior to -18°, some light begins to invade the nightly sky. The dark sky then gives way to the twilight sky. That is what we have called the astronomical twilight. Some of the celestial objects (the less brilliant ones) situated above the eastern horizon become unseen. As the sun moves towards the surface of the eastern horizon, more and more celestial objects become unseen from earth: the less brilliant ones first, then even the more brilliant ones like Sirius and the planets of the solar system disappear in the twilight sky. Between full darkness and full daylight, three phases follow one another

1. -18° < h <-12° : astronomical twilight
2. -12° < h <; -6° : nautical twilight
3. -6° < h < 0° : civil twilight

where h is the height of the sun below the terrestrial horizon

During the first phase, which occurs between 1h30 and 1h before the sunrise, most of the celestial objects remain visible from earth. During the second phase (between 1h and 0h30 before sunrise) are only visible, from earth, the brightest objects. During the third phase, no star is visible; only some of the planets of our solar system can still be seen, close to the western horizon, like Venus or Jupiter.


Causing matter to exist and to live is the primary nature in Neith’s primeval role in creation. That she does so without assistance of other deities is attested to her from the Pyramid Texts to the end of ancient Egyptian culture. Of all Egyptian gods and goddesses, Neith is often referred to in Egyptian texts as the "eldest," and even as the "first" deity. She is reputed, especially in the Late Period, to be the great creator of the world, and is often called by some scholars the equivalent of the creator gods such as Atum and Ptah. As in the case of these primeval gods (though generally referred to as male), Neith is described in texts as either undifferentiated in gender or possessing both genders. As such, Neith should not be seen as a "original mother goddess" figure, as indicated in some references, but as an androgynous deity who creates the world from self-generation. However, unlike these gods who act after "emerging" from the void, the texts from all periods of Egyptian history indicate she is, in fact, representation of the first conscious Act of Creation from the Void, who takes the inert potential of Nun and causes creation to begin.

While in the Late Period Neith is associated with several male deities, she is considered a goddess without a consort, who creates the world as an androgynous being, and who gives birth to the sun parthenogenically. She is a creatrix (female creator) who relies upon no male god to conceive and/or give birth.

There are later epithets and self-attributes assigned to Neith as a creatrix ("I am that which is, which shall be, and which has been. None ever uplifted my garment. The fruit which I brought forth was the sun." Proclus, In Timaeum, 30). One can see that Neith’s mysterious and indefinite quality as a creator is similar to that of the Deity in Genesis 1: 6-7, and in the attributes of the Logos of John.

Neith’s eclipse in prominence during the Dynasties 2, 3 and 4 is directly proportionate to the rise of the supremacy of Re (and by extension, the emphasis in royal titulary on the "Son of Re" name), and the substitution of Hathor as Mother and Daughter of Re (usurping Neith’s titles in this area), as well as becoming the wife of Re. As a parallel development, the scarab beetle (scarabaeus sacra), also a "self-regenerating" insect as the click beetle, rises to prominence during this same period and assumes the click beetle’s symbolism with "parthenogenic" self-generation.

(*) Sandman-Holmberg (1946: 218), noted in Memphis there existed the epithet for a deity called /xnt-Tnn.t/, "he who is at the head of The
elevated place," referring to the Memphite primeval mound. Sandman-Holmberg notes the epithet exists both independently in the First Intermediate Period, and as an epithet for Neith as the "mistress of The elevated place." Once again, this may refer to the goddess as the feminine deity of Memphis, as other deities are worshipped in the location in Memphis referred to as /Tnn.t/. Later the epithet comes to refer to Ptah, in his aspect as the "head of the Kingdom of Death" in the New Kingdom.

The above is taken from my article:

Griffis-Greenberg, K. 1999. The Guiding Feminine III: Neith: Ancient Goddess of the Beginning, the Beyond, and the End. InScription: Journal of Ancient Egypt 6: 25-28.

Soon to be placed online in the future.

Other information about Neith can be found here:

Bleeker, C. J. 1967. The Egyptian Goddess Neith. In Studies in Mysticism and Religion presented to Gershom G. Scholem on his Seventieth Birthday by Pupils Colleagues and Friends: 41-56. Jerusalem:Magnes Press/Hebrew University.

Hendrickx, SS. 1996. Two Protodynastic Objects in Brussels and the Origin of the Bilobate Cult-Sign of Neith. JEA 82: 23-42.

Hollis, S. T. 1995. 5 Egyptian Goddesses in the Third Millenium B.C.: Neith, Hathor, Nut, Isis, Nephthys. KMT 5/4: 46-51; 82-85.

Lloyd, A. 1991. Cult, Myth, and Kingship in Pharaonic Egypt. Inaugural Lecture, Delivered at the College on 12 November 1990. Swansea: University College of Swansea.

Mallet, D. 1888. Le culte de Neit à Saïs. Paris: Leroux.

Weis, A. 1985. Die Madonna Platytera. Entwurf für ein Christentum als Bildoffenbarung anhand der Geschichte eines Madonnenthemas. Berlin: Karl Robert Langewiesche Nachforger Hans Köster. (on association of the Christian Madonna Platytera motif with the parthenogenic Neith.)

el-Sayed, R. 1974. Les rôles attribués à la déesse Neith dans certains des Textes des Cercueils. Orientalia 43: 275-294.

Schlichting, R. 1982. Neith. In Lexikon der Ägyptologie, IV: 393-394. Wiesbaden: Harrasowitz.

Schott, S. 1969. Ein Kult der Göttin Neith. In Das Sonnenheiligtum des Königs Userkaf, Band II: [Die Funde]: 123-138. Beiträge zur ägyptischen Bauforschung and Altertumskunde 8. Wiesbaden: Schweizerisches Institut für ägyptische Bauforschung and Altertumskunde in Kommission bei Franz Steiner Verlag.

HTH.
_________________
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg

Doctoral Candidate
Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies
Doctoral Programme [Egyptology]
Oxford University
Oxford, United Kingdom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Mythology and Religion All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group