Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Nefertiti's daughters
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Gerard.
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 492
Location: France

PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you look for an egyptologist, in Reeves p.161 the two tasherit (juniors) are "king's daughters".

I do not own G.Roeder's book anymore, should you need to see the text, look for Hermopolis blocks 234 & 451 . An interresting fact is that on block 234 Ankhesenpaaton is mentionned as a daughter of Akhnenaten.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sobek
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 113
Location: Maine, USA

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Other than Meketaten, the guest of honor, three of the princesses appear in the death scene in chamber gamma in the royal tomb. Is this correct?

Are the princesses, other than Meketaten, identified in this scene by inscription?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This scene from the royal tomb?

The princesses are identified as Meritaten, Ankhesenpaaten and Nefernferuaten-tasherit for as far as I know.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ELISE
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 18 Jul 2005
Posts: 169

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the chances of the tasherit princesses being daughters of Tutankhamen is very remote. Precisely because they have 'aten' name endings.

His children could not have been born till well after the death of Akhenaten and restoration of the old order - so I think they would have had different names.

The foetuses from KV62 are very likely his own stillborn offspring - but I don't see them as specifically Meritaten and Ankhesenpaaten tasherit.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kharis
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 17 Jan 2010
Posts: 70
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The carvings of the Armana Royal Family show the six princesses in various sizes - is there evidence that the relative size of each princess matches their age? Or are they simply artistic attempts to show some were older than others?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Meretseger
Priest
Priest


Joined: 02 Jan 2010
Posts: 588

PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gypsy wrote:
Wow. So the three youngest daughters just vanished after Akhenatens reign. Could they have been victims of plague or famine?


We must emphasize that a disappearance from monuments does not necessarily mean the individual died. As daughters of Akhenaten the three youngest princesses importance would have ended with their father's life.

It is possible they continued living at Akhenaten or they may have retired with their father's other femal dependents to one of the harem palaces. It is just possible one of them made a foreign marriage. There is a fragment of vase showing a Syrian king with his wife in the standard regalia of an Egyptian princess.

Beketaten could have been a fith daughter of Amenhotep III and Tiye or she might have been their attested youngest daughter Nebetah under a new name. Since the KV55 mummy was apparently born in the last years of Amenhotep III there is no reason why Tiye could not have had a just pubescent daughter in AKhenaten's yr. 12 (the fact Beket is shown fully dressed means she is not a mere despite her small size).

Given that Tut's parents were respectively a son and daughter of Tiye and Amenhotep III it is possible that Beket was already old enough to be married to her brother (Smen or Akhi) and was the mother of Tut.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A fragment of an amphora was found with text identifying the object as belonging to the inner (burial) chamber of Neferneferure.

So it seems that at least Neferneferure died fairly young and was buried in the royal wadi in Amarna. I have read that she may have been buried in another tomb in the royal wadi, and the fact that she was not buried in the royal tomb itself may indicate she died after Akhenaten.
Neferneferure was born before year 12, and maybe by ca year 9 (total guess)? If she died after Akhenaten but was buried in Amarna, she must have died before Tutankhamen moved north. So before his 2nd year? Which would mean she could have been between 6 and maybe 10 years old???


Neferneferuaten-tasherit and Setepenre we don't hear from again, but then again no funerary items have surfaced either for as far as I know.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sobek
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 113
Location: Maine, USA

PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many cultural traditions (including those of ancient Egypt?) put the responsibility of bearing sons on the mother. Despite this, it is known the father (by transmitting an X chromosome for a daughter, or a Y chromosome for a son) usually determines the sex of a child. The chance of a man capable of fathering a son having six daughters in a row is less than 2%.

Do you think Amenhotep IV/Akhenaten was able to have a son?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have no way to know if this was a statistical fluke or not.
And if not, the reason could equally well lie with the mother for all we know.

I'm not aware of any "conditions" in a father that would result in only female children?

Considering that depicting male children only became fashionable during the reign of Ramesses II (several decades later) I would personally not want to attach too much importance to the depiction of daughters only.
For Amenhotep III we only know of 2 sons from the records: Tuthmosis and Amenhotep (later Akhenaten).
And with all the wives Amenhotep III had (Gilukhepa of Mitanni, daughter of the king of Babylon, daughter of the King of Arzawa, likely Henut and Nebetnehat who are mentioned on canopic jar fragments and who knows who else) it seems rather hard to believe those were the only male children he ever sired.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sobek
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 113
Location: Maine, USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The east and west walls of chamber alpha in the Royal Tomb at Akhetaten are decorated with scenes of the royal family worshipping the Aten at sunrise and sunset. I have read that five of the daughters of Nefertiti are included in these scenes. Which daughter is missing?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Meretseger
Priest
Priest


Joined: 02 Jan 2010
Posts: 588

PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably Meketaten as she was apparently buried in the alpha-beta-gamma suite, possibly with other royal ladies.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 4060
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sobek wrote:
The east and west walls of chamber alpha in the Royal Tomb at Akhetaten are decorated with scenes of the royal family worshipping the Aten at sunrise and sunset. I have read that five of the daughters of Nefertiti are included in these scenes. Which daughter is missing?


Geoffrey Thorndike Martin : The royal tomb at El Amarna II - The Reliefs, Inscriptions and Architecture. - London : Egypt Exploration Society, 1989. - ISBN : 0-85698-107-9. - Archaeological survey of Egypt - Memoirs - ASE - 39.

Page 30 :

Quote:
... Wall A shows considerable evidence of reworking, particularly of the figures of the royal couple. Both appear to have been recarved, partly to convert them from the 'exaggerated' style of the early Amarna years, in which they were originally rendered, to the more conventional or sedate style in vogue during the later part of the reign. A further reason for the recarving seems to lie in the fact that the large figures of the King and Queen had to be moved slightly to the left to accommodate additional figures of princesses behind Nefertiti. It is not easy to interpret all the traces, which are not noted by previous commentators, particularly since the figures have been mutilated in antiquity and in more recent times. The various lines of the recutting, insofar as it has proved possible to be sure about them, are shown in Plates 34 and 36. Plaster was undoubtedly applied over all the earlier figures which exhibited traits of the 'exaggerated' style, but little now remains. ...


Page 31 :

Quote:
... Only exiguous traces of the figures of the two named princesses remain behind their mother. Both were extending sistra (as was customary in such scenes), and the sidelock of one is still discernible. At some stage the figures of the two sisters were covered over with plaster. This has now mostly disappeared, and the underlying wall surface is chipped as if to provide a key for the plaster. Bouriant records the names, now totally lost, of Ankhesenpaaten and Nefer-neferuaten adjacent to the inscription just mentioned. The area behind the Queen was therefore once occupied by figures of four of the princesses, presumably two above and two below. It is possible that the replastering and recarving was done to accommodate figures of the third and fourth daughters, either when they were born (while work was in progress in the Royal Tomb) or when they entered public life and became part of the standard Amarna iconographicai representation.
Some of the area originally occupied by the princesses' figures was carved with representations of fanbearers, recorded by Bouriant but now partly destroyed. The wall shows signs not only of reworking but of hasty completion. ...


Page 34 (about Wall C):

Quote:
... Behind the head of Nefertiti are the columns of text containing the names and filiation of the daughters referred to above. Those of princesses Meritaten, Meketaten, Ankhesenpaaten, and Neferneferuaten-tasherit survive, but also of considerable interest are traces of the name of a fifth princess, Neferneferure. This was not seen by Bouriant, perhaps because most of the final column of text has been plastered over. ...


Greetings, Lutz.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Sobek
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 113
Location: Maine, USA

PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Lutz, for posting the wall scene desriptions.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group