Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The Title Name of Pharaoh

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Pharaohs and Queens
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
zampeada
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:29 pm    Post subject: The Title Name of Pharaoh Reply with quote

I found at http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/pharaoh that says:

"Pharaoh is a title used to refer to the kings (of godly status) in ancient Egypt Ancient Egypt... The term derives from the words pr-o, meaning Great House. It was not commonly used by the Egyptians themselves to refer to their monarchs, but is frequently used by modern historians due to its use in the Bible especially the Book of Exodus."

Can someone elaborate more? I seem to be a little blur here... At what point the title name was basically used generic to refer to the King of Egypt? In what dynasty? Godly status? What is that mean?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't knnow when the term pr-o was coined in ancient egypt.

The pharaoh was considered devine. Sometimes referred to as the son of Amun-Ra. Both Hatshepsut and Amenhotep III have left us with inscriptions which claim that Amun seduced the Queen (after taking the form of her husband) and that hence they were the direct offspring of the god.

From the titles I have seen, the King was usually referred to as the "Lord of the Two Lands"
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Raia
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 153
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have never heard that term before but I have heard Pharaoh being defined as "Great House" before
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Segereh
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Posts: 2934
Location: Bruges

PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The King was most often referred to as 'Lord of the Two Lands' (Neb-Tawi), meaning Upper and Lower Egypt. Much alike this one is his title of 'Nesoe-bity' (belonging to sedge and bee - the two symbols of respectively Upper and Lower Egypt).

Mostly pharaoh is called only 'the Great Lord' though.

"Pharaoh" itself is derived from "pharaô", the Greek form in the Septuaginta of Hebrew "par'oh", which is a loan of Ancient Egyptian "pr-'3" (per-aa-a, "Great House"), originally the term for the palace, in the New Kingdom also used for the person residing there (i.e. the king).

In Assyrian records the word occurs as "pi-ir-3u-u" (pir-aa-u), and the Greek historians (like Herodotus) used "pherôn". In Coptic the title is [p]rro, while the Quran calls the king of Egypt fir'awn.

In centuries past, a link with paa-re ("the sun") or paa-oer ("the great one", king) have sometimes (wrongly) been suggested.
_________________
"Leave him in error who loves his error."
"Learn politeness from the impolite."

Feel free to visit my site in construction:
-- www.enks.net --
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
zampeada
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Segereh wrote:
... while the Quran calls the king of Egypt fir'awn.


In Quran, only the king at the time of Moses was called firaun (or pharaoh). The Eygptian king in the time of Abraham and Josep was just called al-malik (or King). weird!

anneke wrote:

Both Hatshepsut and Amenhotep III have left us with inscriptions which claim that Amun seduced the Queen (after taking the form of her husband) and that hence they were the direct offspring of the god.


probably this why some suggest that the title was started uses in the New Kingdom... hence why Quran used the name Firaun to refer the king of Egypt... if only the king live in the New Kingdom.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
zampeada
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

one more... is it true than Egyptian King believed themselves as God or at least son of God? They used that title to signify that status? mmm...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Segereh
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Posts: 2934
Location: Bruges

PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a tricky one.
Kings named themselves mostly

Son of Re (Sa Re)
Son of Horus
Son of Amon (New Kingdom)

I think it was meant symbolically. Smile
Being Son of Horus was meant more like being rightful king, whereas the king, being son of Amon and Re rather seems to point in the direction of "I'm devine"...
_________________
"Leave him in error who loves his error."
"Learn politeness from the impolite."

Feel free to visit my site in construction:
-- www.enks.net --
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
zampeada
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Question

mmm... don't know why i still confused.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Kings did have mortuary temples erected in their own honor.
At least some were worshipped there. Horemheb is an example.
So are Tetisheri and Ahmose-Nefertari.

Maybe at least some of the were considered gods after death?
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Segereh
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Posts: 2934
Location: Bruges

PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

During their lifetimes, I doubt the pharaohs of the New Kingdom actually let themselves to be considered as fully divine. This frequently happened post-mortem though.

Old Kingdom kings saw rather less of a difference between the deities and themselves.
_________________
"Leave him in error who loves his error."
"Learn politeness from the impolite."

Feel free to visit my site in construction:
-- www.enks.net --
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
zampeada
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do a little search... arggh.... i think i can grab a little... i'm just a little slow at pick up things in these few days...

This what Dr. Ridgely Abdul Mu’min Muhammad comment about the title name 'Pharaoh':

First of all let’s go to the World Book Encyclopedia for an understanding of the term "Pharaoh". "Pharaoh was a title of the later kings of ancient Egypt. The Egyptians did not call their ruler pharaoh until the Eighteenth Dynasty (1570-1300 B.C.). Even then, pharaoh was not one of the king’s most important titles. Writers of the Old Testament usually used pharaoh as a title for the king of Egypt."

The World Book is correct on two points:

1. The Old Testament does refer to the kings of Egypt as "pharaoh" as though it was a proper name and not a title. They never give you a specific name that would tie you to a historical character. Why?

2. "Pharaoh" was a title of later kings. According to Dr. Budge in his "Hieroglyphic Dictionary" the term "pharaoh" or "per-aa" meaning "great house" was used by 4 kings of Egypt, all foreign invaders starting in the 27th not 18th Dynasty.

The first set of these latter day invaders, who called themselves "pharaoh", were Persians:

1. Xerxes,
2. Khabbasha, and
3. Artaxerxes, in that order.

Now we do have a historical figure "Xerxes" who, according to the World Book Encyclopedia, became king of Persia in 485 B.C. and who, according to the Bible in Esther, did persecute some Jews in Persia. Of course, this was some 800 years after the reign of Ramesses II, who Bible scholars try to pin the Exodus on.

The next set of invaders and usurpers who used the title of Pharaoh were the Greeks or Macedonians, namely Alexander II. The Persians and Greeks were not the first to invade Egypt and usurp the throne. The Hyksos, or "Shepherd Kings" were the first way back in the 15th through the 17th Dynasty about 2000 B.C.. Some of them, according to James Blaikie’s "A History of Egypt", carried the names "Yekeb-hal", "Jacob is God" and "Yekeb-ba’al", "Jacob is Lord".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
zampeada
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

some more from http://www.ancient-egypt.org/language/titulary/

We commonly refer to the kings of Ancient Egypt as "Pharaohs". This was in fact the word used by the Greeks and the Hebrews to denote the rulers of the Nile-country. This word is derived from the Egyptian "the Great House", a word originally used to denote the palace or the court.

From the end of the 12th Dynasty onwards the health wish "may it live, prosper and be in health" was often added when referring to "the Great House", but still it seems to mean only the palace or the court.

The earliest certain instance where "the Great House" actually refers to the king is in a letter to Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten), which is addressed to "Pharaoh, may he live, prosper and be in health, the Master".

From the 19th Dynasty onward it is used occasionally just as "His Majesty" might be used. We read "Pharaoh did such and such". In other words the term has become a respectful designation for the king, just as "the White House" sometimes refers to the person living in it rather than to the building itself. The final development was when a proper name was added to the title, as in "Pharaoh Hophra" of the Old Testament. The earliest known Egyptian example of this use is under one of the Shoshenks of the 22nd Dynasty.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
zampeada
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

again from, http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/titles.htm

The idea that the King of Egypt was connected to the Egyptian deities goes back beyond the Middle Kingdom, right to the beginnings of the kingship and of the royal titulary, to the early days of Dynastic Egypt (and perhaps earlier still). Before going further, it should be pointed out that "pharaoh", the most popular "title" of the Egyptian King, is not Egyptian at all. That is to say, the Egyptians did not call their King "Pharaoh" until very late in their history, and then only as non-Egyptians took up the word. "Pharaoh" is a Hebrew pronunciation of the Egyptian word, per-aa, meaning Great House, and was first used as a label for the king himself around 1450 BCE. But the title-word for the King was nisu, as can be seen for example in the Offering Formula, or hetep di nisu.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Segereh
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Posts: 2934
Location: Bruges

PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not a Bible-specialist, but I think I'm starting to know where your confusion stems from. It all seems to be like a chronology-issue now. In response to your messages: per-aa was adapted in Greek and Hebrew sources as 'pharaoh' indeed. This 'title' was used like 'the White House' is often used to describe central USA government. The term never existed as an Egyptian title for the king though, maybe merely as "neb-en-per-aa" (lord of the great house). That is all.

I seriously doubt the *** form 'pharaoh' was ever in use up to 1450BC. This seems to me only a way to make the Old Testament look older than it really is. I'm not saying oral tradition wasn't existing by that date, but I would surely like to see the slightest sign of existence for the Bible (the Old Testament that is), during the reigns of 18th dynasty kings.

All I want to say, is that the term 'pharaoh' appears to have only originated later on, certainly being used during the first Greek encounters with Egyptian civilisation, maybe first mentioned during the reigns of the Jerusalem Kings. But this would not be earlier than a certain 1000BC.

On the original title of the Egyptian king, used in Ancient Egypt itself, "nesoe" was rather rare. The word means 'king' indeed, but u never adressed or mentioned the king simply as "nesoe" ('belonging to sedge'). This was only part of the original title "nesoe-bity" as mentioned before. I doubt u should've even tried adressing the king, using only one title. Cool
_________________
"Leave him in error who loves his error."
"Learn politeness from the impolite."

Feel free to visit my site in construction:
-- www.enks.net --
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Segereh
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Posts: 2934
Location: Bruges

PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always seem to forget the word '***' gets censored in here. Smile I don't mean it as a swear though. In this context I meant 'pharaoh' to be not really a loan-word, but rather a violated form of "per-aa".
_________________
"Leave him in error who loves his error."
"Learn politeness from the impolite."

Feel free to visit my site in construction:
-- www.enks.net --
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Pharaohs and Queens All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group