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Cleopatra. True beauty?
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cleo Selene married Juba I.
Offspring: Juba II, put aside sometime later by the Romans.
End of the Lagids.

Always found that a bit sad. Confused
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zenobia Queen of Palmyra claimed she was a descendant of Cleopatra. Wonder who she had in mind as the "intermediaries".
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Rip Li
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hollywood (in America) pretty much screwed up everyone's ideals of beauty. They want tall, thin, anorexic women who wear nothing basically. I am NOT close to that. I am made fun of because of this false Hollywood stereotype of beauty.

I bet Cleopatra WAS beautiful compared to the ugliness of Hollywood. Her leadership abilities made her appealing. I bet I'd be a model in ancient Egypt. duh. I'm getting out of here!

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Segereh
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Zenobia Queen of Palmyra claimed she was a descendant of Cleopatra. Wonder who she had in mind as the "intermediaries".


00. CLEOPATRA [VII], Queen of Egypt, d30BC
= (4) Mark Anthony, Roman general; issue:

01. Cleopatra-Selene
= Juba II, King of Mauretania [his 1st], dAD23, issue:

02. Ptolemy, King of Mauretania, dAD40
= (1) Miriam[mne] [Mary]
= (2) Urania [Julia], daughter of Phraates IV, King of Parthia, d35, issue:

03. Drusilla [divorced wife of Felix, Governor of Judea, the husband of three princesses, called "queens", all named Drusilla]
= (2) Sohaemus, King of Emesa AD54-73, issue:

04. Caius Julius Alexio (d78) [his two sisters were: (1) Iotape, wife of Rabbel II "Soter", King of Nabataea 71-106 and (2) Mamaea, wife of M. Ant. Polemo]
= Claudia, daughter of Appius Calpurnius Piso, Roman Emperor 41-54, issue:

05. Mamaea [daughter] [her brother was: Caius Julius Silas]
= Malchus, King of Palmyra, issue:

06. Zenobius, issue:

07. C. Julius Bassus Nassum (d179), issue:

08. Malchus, issue:

09. Malchus, issue:

10. Jul. Aur. Zenobius, Governor of Palymra (AD 229)
= Zabbai of Arabia [descendant of Rabbel II "Soter", King of Nabataea 71-106, & wife Iotape, daughter of Sohaemus, King of Emena & wife Drusilla, # 03, above], issue:

11. ZENOBIA [THEOCLEA], Queen of Palymra 267-273 deposed, dc AD290
= (1) Septimius Odenathus, King of Palymra [his 2nd =]
= (2) a Roman senator [his 2nd =], issue:

12. Wahballtes [Vaballathus], sole surviving son of 1st husband (325)


I don't know if this is completely historically correct, but this at least was her claim. Smile
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lack of information (like in generations 6-9) makes it a bit suspicious Cool .

Did Zenobia make this claim? If so, then Cleopatra must have had a good reputation in that neck of the woods.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's quite blurry indeed, but so is history. Smile
Guess she would've still been in high regard by then.
Got to bear in mind that she seemed to be one of the last 'buffers' to Roman rule.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True, but to any in the Roman empire she would be the "defeated barbarian" I think.

Then again Zenobia was rebelling against Rome, so maybe it fits. I would want to find a link to someone who was successful though....
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In her time we can all agree that Marylin Monroe was considered the standard for feminine beauty and charm.

By today's standards she is considered obese.

So to say that by today's standards Cleopatra would be considered obese means absolutly nothing. To say she was Morbidly Obese might be something, but to simply call her obese? No.


If you look through history the standards of beauty generally reflect leisure time, and abundance.

The old standards of beauty included being somewhat plump, and fair skin.
If you were plump that meant you had more then enough food, and did not spend all your time working. If you were fair you were especially not working because you were not out in the feilds in the sun. Soft un calloused skin also indicated a lack of work.

Modern standards include being very thin, and tan.

If you are busy, and constantly working you probably eat a lot of junk food, and fast food. You don't have time to work out and work off the excess pounds. Most of the popular diets are part of pop culture, and can be very expensive. (Just try and live off of nothing but Atkins food, if nothing else your wallet will get thin.)

Due to the fact that we mostly work indoors and therefore are all a bunch of pale pasty faced goobers. And to be tan, a nice even non farmers tan, you have to spend time and effort on getting said tan.

So put things in context. Cleopatra may be obese by our standards, and we may not find milk white skin the turn on they did. But before you knock Egyptian tastes and think they were nuts. Remember they probably would find most of our current beauties skinny burnt up prunes. Finding the skinniness akin to peasents and hard work. No thanks.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i believe (in today's society), that you shouldn't judge a book by it's cover. and i think people should say "why did juilius or marc antony love cleoptra when she is over weight", well she was also intellegent, doesn't that count as something. why does everything have to be about looks?
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bastet_meow
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

in the end i think that nefertari is better. no offence to anyone. i just think that
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Dampwater
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think she wasn't fat, and was as beautiful as she was described to be. Romans tend to do a weird twist in the nose when depicting a perseon somehow, because to me it makes a man look stronger, but shouldn't be done on women. Now, minding the noe-twist thing that romans normaly did, when taken from a side angel to be portrayed on a coin, the result would be a witch-like Cleaopatra, but if u notice that the rest of her face looks beautiful. For my part i think its a mis-depictation, i thing the tradition nose twist thing that is noticeable in all roman statues kinda ruined her beauty.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2004 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i believe you, i think she was really beautiful.
i don't think we are ever going to know what she really looked like
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:51 pm    Post subject: My opinion Reply with quote

My opinion on Cleopatra is that she was normally attractive, but her intelligence and culture is what really made her attractive to people that meet her, I do belivie that men liked her, becuase she didin't act stupid and dumb without an opinion at all.

I think the movie with Elizabeth Taylor as Cleopatra was a good example of this.
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bastet_meow
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

out of all the cleopatra movies that i have seen i liked elizabeth taylor. it wasn't just over her beauty that made her who she is today. but her intellegence
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:21 pm    Post subject: Cleopatra's looks Reply with quote

If, by using the profile that is shown on a Roman coin that was issued at the time of Julius Caesar, we try to judge if Cleopatra was beautiful or not, we come up with a decision that is, at best, very ambiguious. She seems to have had a very narrow face, with quite a poibted chin. The face on the coin is dominated by a very large nose.
The idea of her being overweight is only hyperbole and absolutely not true at all. A statue of her, one that survived the purge of her image by Agustus, shows a woman with a "full" figure, but not overweight at all.
She was supposed to be very intelligent, which was considered to be part of her attraction, and was the only Egyptian ruler for several hundred years who spoke Egyptian--along with Greek, Latin, Babylonian, Syrian and several others.
She was firm in her belief that she was Pharaoh, and ruled with the blessing of the gods of Egypt.
She was high priestess of Isis.
All in all, she was a most remarkable woman.
The bad press she has been given over the years--the "femme fatale" she was supposed to be, was the result of a concentrated effort by the Romans--especially Agustus--to convince the people of Rome what an unholy harlot she was--and it seemed to have worked too well!
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