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Opinions- Why is Ancient Egypt so spiritual to many people?
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That previous one was to Annie. Just to make sure. Smile

dragonlady wrote:
Almost all religions when you take away their trappings are at the core very similar. Look through the various cultures, histories and religions. Most have some or all of the following.
Belief in spirits of the dead.
A God who is destroyed and then returns to conquer death.
A creation story.
A flood story.
Good spirits (gods, gudes, angels, or saints) that watch over their people and protect them.


That's quite normal. Religion, or at least mythology, is told by people, humans. Wouldn't we tell stories about what we fear or what we are genuinely interested in? Much like science, mythology gives us "answers" to the questions we're asking. As humans. Egyptians were humans, Sumerians were as well as Hebrews and Belgians. Still this is not a source for telling Hebrew or Christian religion stemmed in large parts from the Egyptian religions.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well I suppose one could always come up with theories and similarities between Christianity and ancient Egypt. As a Christian, I say that I don't feel any spiritual connections with ancient Egypt. I have always been fascinated with ancient Egypt as a child but as an ancient civilisation, along with others that I like.


In my original post (that started the christianity and egyptian thing) I said that for many it makes it seem familiar. Many of us were raised Christian, some have left the religion behind, some still are there. But there are some core elements that are similar and for some of us that familiarity is comforting.

Quote:
I trust God's word in saying that Christianity is like no other religion.


Where does God say that?
He say's "Thou shall have no other Gods before me." But I don't remember ever being taught, "There are no other religions like mine."

Quote:
Mythology is interesting but I believe that Christianity is a religion in itself and don't think that the Egyptian religion rubbed off on it particularly. I know I don't know much about the theories that have circulated around this. I just know a few details. "

Christianity has been influenced by almost every religion it has come accross.
It was started by jews, plain and simple. Jesus was a jew, his followers were jews, and those that carried on his works after he died, rose again and ascended, were jews.
Now, they may have left Judeasm in order to follow their lord, but they were still jews by blood.

As time went on, Jews and Christians spread further apart becoming very seperate religions. Christians awaiting the return of their saviour, Jews awaiting the arrival of the Messiah.

But to claim that Christianity has nothing to do with the Jews, well that would be like claiming that Baptists, Protestents and the other many many forms of of Christianity have nothing to do with, or share no history with the Catholic Church.

Most modern forms of Christianity broke off from another form of Christianity in protest, at one point or another in their history. If you trace those breaks far enough back you will find th Catholic Church.

The Jews were influenced by their time in Egqypt and Egypts influence on the rest of the world, Christians came from Jews. It's not insulting to Christians today, it simply is.

Christianity is also heavily influenced by Paganism in it's many forms.
Most holidays are variations of Pagan Holidays, the ways of celebrating have been adapted, and the reasons for celebrating were given a christian spin. The Dates or times of celebration were pretty much left the same.

But to delve into that any further, we'd probably want to move to the general board.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BAH messed that all up there.
I meant to quote part of the original post, and reply.
. . . I hope y'all can figure out what was my post and what wasn't. Embarassed
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was about to post something about that. Figured you were talking to me, Segereh.

Dragon Lady makes some good points.
Quote:

It can be summed up in, I haven't been a shmuck, I haven't deliberatly harmed others, slept with those I was not supposed to, and havent' interfered with the Gods will.


Those seem to lead to a "good life". I think there are some universal standards of descency, respect and honesty that are cornerstones of any real religion.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dragonlady wrote:
Where does God say that?
He say's "Thou shall have no other Gods before me." But I don't remember ever being taught, "There are no other religions like mine."


Looks like quite the same to me. Confused
When saying other reverences of gods are 'taboo', u kinda say your own reverence is the only one 'to matter', no?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL they are totally different.

Thou shall have no other Gods before me.
That means I'm numero uno buddy! No body else gets to be more important to me.
That means, you worship nothing before you worship me. Your wife, you rmoney, your job, they are not as important as me. Other Gods, do not come before Me.

That is not the same thing as saying
No one else is like me. Just no one else before me.

Compare it to a marriage.
I promise to never love anyone above you.
You are my one, my only, you are my partner.

Now, does this mean you will never admire anyone else? No.
Does this mean you will never feel affection or love for anyone else? No.
Does this mean that no one else will have a relationship with their spouse that is similar to yours? No.

It means you have a covenent between you and your spouse. I will love and cherish you above all others.

With God, I will love and worship you above all others I will not have another God before you.

That is not the same thing as saying that this is a unique religion, nothing else is like it in the world.

Sorry but that doesn't fly.

Quote:
When saying other reverences of gods are 'taboo', u kinda say your own reverence is the only one 'to matter', no?


Again I will reiterate, it there is a difference between, I am unique, there are no other Gods LIKE me and You shall have no other Gods BEFORE me.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't say that everything Jewish was chucked out Annake. The Old Testement is very important, I know that but I thought the new seems quite different to the old, in the way of how the world is portrayed. I also did menton that the first Christians were Jews. I just said there wern't very many of them to begin with.

Also, I know you think that the Egyptian religion had influenced the Jews a lot but I think it's possible for people's beliefs to stay the same even in another country without influence. Yes sometimes religions seem similar on the face of things, but there are major differences. E.g. Islam and Christianity. We may have things in common, like believing in one God but there are fundamental differences.

I suppose in your eyes, you think it inevitable or highly likely for one religion to influence another if in close proximity, but I don't think that's necessarily true.

Plus seeing as I believe the word of God, when he says "this is my word" (the Bible) I personaly believe him, which I know is different from your core beliefs anyway.

Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not arguing the validity of the bible.
It would get very heated very fast. And I'm not looking for a heated debate, just a debate Wink

I am not arguing God saying this is my word.
My point is simply that no where I remember does God claim to be unique from and different from all other Gods and religions.

He demands to be worshiped above anything else. Say's he is I Am.

If you can find me a quote or reference to make the point otherwise I will cede to your point.

The major religions do have fundemental differences. But they have places where they are similar. I think this is good, it is a meeting place.

So when two people meet, and they have different religions, they can connect. You can say, I don't undestand 90% of your beliefs, but here, we share beliefs. We may have different names for it, but look how similar they are. I can understand how you would believe that.

From there you can try to understand their world view and they can try and understand yours.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OOps I didn't see you there Dragon Lady!

Well, I know that he says do not have any other Gods but me. But doesn't he also say that all other God's are false? He comments that they are man made and are false idols. He says this throughout the Old Testement.
Here's a few examples:

Leviticus 19:4: "Do not put your trust in idols or make gods of metal for yourselves. I, the LORD, am your God."

Leviticus 26:30: "I will destroy your pagan shrines and cut down your incense altars. I will leave your corpses piled up beside your lifeless idols, and I will despise you." (sorry about the harshness of this one Smile )

Isaiah 17:8: "They will no longer ask their idols for help or worship what their own hands have made. They will never again bow down to their Asherah poles or burn incense on the altars they built."

Now, the New Testement. John 14:6, Jesus says , "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."

Here, he states that he is the way and in context it means to have a full relationship with God. Then he says he is the truth, which is explicit in meaning. He says he is the "life" too, which refers to having a new life of hope through him and for eternity. In other verses Jesus (name in his language, Aramaic is Y'eshua) talks more about his role when it comes to us and eternal life.

Therefore, he states he is the only way to God the Father, eternal life and states that HE is the truth.

You can always check the Bible or study notes from Theologists if you like. Actually http://www.biblegateway.com is a good site for finding specific Bible quotes. Cool
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LMiss_Sunshine wrote:
I didn't say that everything Jewish was chucked out Annake. The Old Testement is very important, I know that but I thought the new seems quite different to the old, in the way of how the world is portrayed. I also did menton that the first Christians were Jews. I just said there wern't very many of them to begin with.

Also, I know you think that the Egyptian religion had influenced the Jews a lot but I think it's possible for people's beliefs to stay the same even in another country without influence. Yes sometimes religions seem similar on the face of things, but there are major differences. E.g. Islam and Christianity. We may have things in common, like believing in one God but there are fundamental differences.

I suppose in your eyes, you think it inevitable or highly likely for one religion to influence another if in close proximity, but I don't think that's necessarily true.

Plus seeing as I believe the word of God, when he says "this is my word" (the Bible) I personaly believe him, which I know is different from your core beliefs anyway.

Smile


Didn't mean to step on any toes.
I guess we are just an example of two people looking at the same events, and drawing slightly different conclusions.
Also wondered if we might have different interpretations of the word 'influence'?

But I don't really want to get into it much further. Smile
Religion can be a very contentious topic, and I prefer to just have fun.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anneke - no harm no foul. I didn't feel stepped on, I just like to debate. Debating and fighting are different.

LMiss Sunshine, I'll keep going on this as long as you are game. I just want for the record, I'm not mad, spoiling for a fight, nor want this to degenerate into flaming.

Quote:
Leviticus 19:4: "Do not put your trust in idols or make gods of metal for yourselves. I, the LORD, am your God."


I am the lord, am YOUR God.
Again this does not take away the validity of other Gods nor prove them false.
Do not put your trust in IDOLS or make gods of METAL for yourselves.
Idols and gods are different (unless you go into stone gods, they exist becuase of the energy you put in them . . but that is a different tangent.)

Again I compare it to a marriage. I am your husband, you will not love other men before me, you will not idolize them.
This is not the same as saying that no other men exist.

Quote:
Leviticus 26:30: "I will destroy your pagan shrines and cut down your incense altars. I will leave your corpses piled up beside your lifeless idols, and I will despise you."


Lets put that into context please.
God is giving his people his covenent.
http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/B03C026.htm

He says basically, I will shelter you, provide you with food, and cause you to mulitply. In return, you will worship me, and set me first.

Then come the consequences of breaking faith with God -
Quote:
And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:
I also will do this unto you;...Leviticus 26:15-16



THen this leads into a series of punishments that would make strong men tremble. I mean nasty, ironic, vengeance. These are the words of a vengeful god.

But again, these are punishments for breaking faith with God, these are the punishments dealt upon his people. Not pagans in general.

Quote:
Isaiah 17:8: "They will no longer ask their idols for help or worship what their own hands have made. They will never again bow down to their Asherah poles or burn incense on the altars they built."


Again lets put this into context -
Quote:
Isiah 17:7-11 On that day people will regard their Maker, and their eyes will look to the Holy One of Israel; 8 they will not have regard for the altars, the work of their hands, and they will not look to what their own fingers have made, either the sacred poles or the altars of incense.
9 On that day their strong cities will be like the deserted places of the Hivites and the Amorites, which they deserted because of the children of Israel, and there will be desolation. 10For you have forgotten the God of your salvation, and have not remembered the Rock of your refuge; therefore, though you plant pleasant plants and set out slips of an alien god, 11though you make them grow on the day that you plant them, and make them blossom in the morning that you sow; yet the harvest will flee away in a day of grief and incurable pain.


This is the destruction of Damascus, and punishment for turning away from God. Not punishment for never having worshiped him in the first place. If he was intent on destroying all pagans, the old Testament God would not have hesitated. He was an angry vengeful God.

Then comes the new testament with a kinder gentler God.



Quote:
Now, the New Testement. John 14:6, Jesus says , "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."


I agree with you on one point.
The only way to the Father is through Jesus, the only way to the Christian God is to accept Jesus as saviour.
The Christian God offers a convenant, his forgiveness, protection, salvation etc.. and the path to this covenant is through Jesus.

But the only way this disproves the existance of other gods is if you assume that there are no other gods to begin with.

Lets look at it another way.
You order widgets from Bob's world of widgets. Bob only uses UPS to ship his widgets.

So you say that UPS is the only path to widgets.
But it's not, it's the only path to Bob's Widgets. There is Stan's Stunning Widgets, and Widgets Are Us that also ship Widgets using different methods of post.

I would like to end with pointing out that acknowledging the possibility of other Gods is not the same thing as worshiping them, or denying your own God.

Like in a marriage, you can acknowledge other men (or women), even find them attractive. But this does not show unfaithfulness to your spouse.[

p.s. YAY look who got quotes to work this time Cool
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="dragonlady"]
Quote:
I'm reading people comparing christianity to Egypt... The "bible" as it existed before forgery, translation, etc may have been a little similar. Even so, I think the only "similarities" that do exist, could come from the fact that Egypt probably greatly influenced christianity. I've read different places that, for example, the 12 tribes of Israel, 12 apostles, etc. could be parables for the signs of the zodiac. Also that Tutankhamun was very similar to Jesus Christ (jesus being an archer, a.k.a sagitarius would look extremely similar to Tut who was often depicted hunting game.)


Quote:
Again I will point out that if you look at the basis of the religions.
Stop seeing the surface of the religion, the multiple gods, the animal headed gods, and pagan surface of the religion.


I mentioned nothing of multiple god, animals headed gods, and paganism in that quote. There was no need for you to make your point clearer the second time.

Quote:
At the core, again I will say they worship one creator, who has no form, no face and no name.


There is no known "core" of christianity/judaism. All we have to go on is the bible. And from the first creation stories it has been a polytheistic/ pagan religion. It has later been reformatted to say "there is only one god" albeit contradictory (divine trinity, for example). Elohim was the creator of all, for example and as I have pointed out, elohim is plural and was the name for god before later translations.

Quote:
If you want to compare a figure in Egyptian History to Jesus I suggest that you look to Osiris. Osiris sprang from this almight un nameable creator, and lived and walked amoung his people as did all of the Gods. He was destroyed (crudified?), cut into many peices. Then Isis gathered the parts of his body, bound them together and so he conquered death.



Jesus, I believe is much closer to King Tut when dealing with the story of his life, I think, than anyone. I don't look at the supernatural story of jesus, because I believe it's fabricated. And if christianity was originally about none other than the "all", then by that standard, the new testament should be debunked all together. Osiris sprang from an unnameable creator, but in christianity we've known who the creator was since the beginning. In Osiris's case also, Isis is recognized as being his savior. In christianity, their is no known female diety.


Quote:
Almost all religions when you take away their trappings are at the core very similar.
Look through the various cultures, histories and religions. Most have some or all of the following.
Belief in spirits of the dead.
A God who is destroyed and then returns to conquer death.
A creation story.
A flood story.
Good spirits (gods, gudes, angels, or saints) that watch over their people and protect them.



I agree with that statement. But I don't believe that since the beginning all religions recognized the "all".... In christianity, if you actually study it, it is reversed. It started as being polythesistic and pagan, and was changed later on. Don't want this to turn into a battle over theology, but maybe you should research the actual root of christianity, judiasm, Qaballah, etc. and you will see my point.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all!
I'v been out of the loop for a few days, but I'm back!

Quote:
This is the destruction of Damascus, and punishment for turning away from God. Not punishment for never having worshiped him in the first place. If he was intent on destroying all pagans, the old Testament God would not have hesitated. He was an angry vengeful God.


No I don't think he intended on destroying all pagans because he still loved us at the end of the day.

It's just that without Jesus, it was hard for him to be close to us because of sinning (because he was pure, holy and cannot stand the blemishes of sin).
Sin refers to the usual mistakes and little white lies as well as the bigguns.

Not that we don't make human mistakes now like then, but you know, Jesus was punished in our place & was the only one able to do it (because he was pure and was God although he lived as a human with human resraints on Earth). Therefore his judgments on people in the OT was harsh because he needed them to be pure when they approached him (through sacrifices of lambs and when a punishment was delt, that ment that person could approach him once more). He longed to be close to us, which is why he brought Jesus to us, so I don't look at him as vengeful and angry. He is peeved though if we don't have a relationship with him or if we disobey him because I believe he loves us and he wants the best for us.

I know this explanation is a bit long but I just wanted to say that I don't think God's the type of guy to go around thowing lightning bolts and punishing people because he's horrible. I just wanted to make that point because I think a lot of people have a wrong impression of him.

As for the whole there are other gods thing, I'm still not convinced that there are others. God says that he created everything and he doesn't say that other gods gave him a helping hand or that anyone else was involved. He says "I" the whole way though. I don't see any room there for other gods.

Also with other scriptures, it seems that we do have different interpretations with what he says.
However, he is the only one that I have seen work miricles in front of my very eyes and at the risk of seeming like a total wacko, I know I have a personal relationship with him. I am convinced that there are no others.

Don't worry Annake, we'll play nicely. Cool

I'm still game dragonlady.
Sometimes a good debate is what's needed to learn as long as it doesn't turn into a fight or a row.

I'm still smiling. Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:57 pm    Post subject: Other gods Reply with quote

Hi! Just thought I'd jump in. I just happened to be reading through Deuteronomy and found in chapter 32 verse 39:

"See now that I myself am He!
There is no god besides me.
I put to death and I bring to life,
I have wounded and I will heal,
and no one can deliver out of my hand."

Just thought I'd throw that out. Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi, new on here, but glad to find people who feel about egypt the way i do. 'discovered' them at age 10 and have been obsessed ever since, even doing a degree in a related discipline, which unfortunatly makes me unemployable lol....everyone i knew before uni thought i was wierd....unable to believe in god but believing in a pantheon that has been effectively dead for 2000 years!
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