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Why is the Greek name different
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bes
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:26 pm    Post subject: Why is the Greek name different Reply with quote

Hotepsekhemwy (first king of the Second dynasty) is known in Greek as Boethos which puzzles me as there is no similarity between the names. Has anyone any idea about this?
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kevininabydos
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The first thing that springs to mind for me is that the Greeks spoke Greek not ancient Egyptian. Idea
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Hotepsekhemwy" is his so called Horus-name. His name was "Hotep", in later times by scribal errors transformed into "Bedjau" (Abydos King List). "Boethos / Bokchos / Bokhos" are hellenized forms of this name, from the Ptolemaic period.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Styler78
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Why is the Greek name different Reply with quote

bes wrote:
Hotepsekhemwy (first king of the Second dynasty) is known in Greek as Boethos which puzzles me as there is no similarity between the names. Has anyone any idea about this?


Hi Bes - Lutz has answered your question, but i will just add that when the "Greeks" were documenting Egypt they gave their own names to towns, rather than using the old Egyptian names. One example is Heracleopolis, described here by Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herakleopolis_Magna. Thebes is another example. Ancient Egyptians dis not call Thebes "Thebes" but it fell into the Upper Egyptian Nome of "Waset"

They did this for their own ease, not ours. Therefore we have many cases of "Greek" place names which are nothing to do with the original names.

I cannot count the amount of instances i have had to document Ancient Egyptian place alongside their Greek names, Arabic names, etc.

Adds to the fun of learning, but bogs you down when in the early stages of studying Ancient Egypt.

Regards,
Stuart
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bes
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are talking of place names - In general I would think you would try to get personal names as close as possible to what the person uses.
Incidentaly have you heard the idea 'Thebes' was not called waset but setwa & this was transformed in the bible to Sheba.
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The name Thebai is the Greek designation of the ancient Egyptian opet "The Karnak Temple" (from coptic ta-pe, Ta-opet became Thebai). At the seat of the Theban triad of Amun, Mut, and Khonsu, Thebes was known in the Egyptian language from the end of the New Kingdom as niwt-imn, "The City of Amun." This found its way into the Hebrew Bible as נא אמון (nōʼ ʼāmôn) (Nahum 3:Cool,"no" in Hebrew meaning city with "no amon" or "City of Amon" referring to the Egyptian deity Amon-Ra, most likely it is also the same as נא ("No") (Ezekiel 30:14). In Greek this name was rendered Διόσπολις Diospolis, "City of Zeus", as Zeus was the god whom the Greeks identified with Amun, see interpretatio graeca. The Greeks surnamed the city μεγάλη megale, "the Great", to differentiate it from numerous other cities called Diospolis. The Romans rendered the name Diospolis Magna.
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bes wrote:
You are talking of place names - In general I would think you would try to get personal names as close as possible to what the person uses.
Incidentaly have you heard the idea 'Thebes' was not called waset but setwa & this was transformed in the bible to Sheba.


Correct- i just wanted to show that place names were also changed/ amended during the same period. No- i was unaware of the Sheba idea.

Name examples would include Cheops (Khufu) and Chephren (Khafre), but i just wanted to show that the Greeks had "their own" names for place names too.

Wink

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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, but Thebes was always Waset. This is the origin of the word Setwa:

SHEWA A region in central Ethiopia - the province within which the modern capital of Addis Ababa sits, in fact. A province governed by members of the Imperial dynasty in the time when the capital of Ethiopia was located at Gondar, in the north, Shewa became a *** Kingdom in the 19th century. The Kingdom was mediatized in 1850's when the capital was transferred to Addis Ababa, but still retained a degree of separation until the end of the chronic internal conflicts within Ethiopia settled in the 1890's.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Osiris II : Unfortunately, as so often, you do not give the source from which you copy (which is not only rude to the original author but also aggravating the examination of the statements). I also think it embarrassingly that you repeat the stupid things you have somewhere copied from the Internet completely uncritically...


Osiris II wrote:
The name Thebai is the Greek designation of the ancient Egyptian opet "The Karnak Temple" (from coptic ta-pe, Ta-opet became Thebai). ...

The ancient name of the temple of Amun in Karnak (the modern village next to the temple complex, today a part of the city of Luxor) is " Jpt-swt (m Wast) " (Hannig I, 2006, p. 1110). "Opet" is the name of an ancient Egyptian annual festival procession.

The Greek name Thebai is already used in the Odyssee (IV, 125-132). Carpenter (1946, pp 90-111) means a written record of the text was made around 630-620 BC. A Coptic origin of the word is therefore absolutely not in question.

As the origin of the Greek designation Thebai is probably the ancient Egyptian name Tamt / Damt to address (Sethe: Amun, 1929, § 103). During the 18th Dynasty this was the designation for the so-called Small Temple in Medineth Habu, later (21. Dynasty) also for the settlement that established itself on the temple grounds gradually.

Lutz
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz--I'm sorry you find my comments so "embarassingly stupid".
I defer to your, in your own opinion, vastly supior knowlege.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris II wrote:
Lutz--I'm sorry you find my comments so "embarassingly stupid". ...

The problem is most of the time they are not yours ...

Lutz
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i always thought opet is the name of the festival where amun travelled from karnak to luxor? and that the egyptians called thebes 'waset'. i also thought that the greeks called it 'thebes' because of their own city by that name.

this is what the english wikipedia says:

Quote:
The name Thebai is the Greek designation of the ancient Egyptian opet "The Karnak Temple" (from coptic ta-pe, Ta-opet became Thebai). At the seat of the Theban triad of Amun, Mut, and Khonsu, Thebes was known in the Egyptian language from the end of the New Kingdom as niwt-imn, "The City of Amun." This found its way into the Hebrew Bible as נא אמון (nōʼ ʼāmôn) (Nahum 3:Cool,"no" in Hebrew meaning city with "no amon" or "City of Amon" referring to the Egyptian deity Amon-Ra, most likely it is also the same as נא ("No") (Ezekiel 30:14). In Greek this name was rendered Διόσπολις Diospolis, "City of Zeus", as Zeus was the god whom the Greeks identified with Amun, see interpretatio graeca. The Greeks surnamed the city μεγάλη megale, "the Great", to differentiate it from numerous other cities called Diospolis. The Romans rendered the name Diospolis Magna.


i know you will huff and puff at wikipedia being used, but the sources are very reliable: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thebes,_Egypt

i dont know where osiris II got the origins of waset from, but from prior experience with his posts lutz, he does have good sources for them. as do you lutz, but yours are mostly in german, so that doesn't help, as you rarely give sources in english.
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Careful, kylejustin.
Your posting was the same, and from the same source, as that I posted, and was raked over the coals for doing so by Lutz.
I have posted quotes from Wikipedia before, and always stated that what was said should be taken with a grain of salt--the comments are person opinon (mostly) and not verified by quoted souces. (most of the time) The posting Lutz complained about was one of the very infrequent times I did not quote my source as Wikipedia.
Lutz' postings are very impressive to look at, but as you say most are in German, which, unfortunately, most of us cannot read. I could not advise anyone to rush out and purchase books that are unreadable! But, obviously, Lutz can do so.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, in scientific work and debate, it is more than usual to name his sources. This allows the critical comparison review.

Furthermore, it is a question of decency and respect for the work of the real author of a text to call him (what you in most of the cases not do, see for example the two posts here in this thread, both containing extended quotes from third partys, not recognizable as such).

And not at least, your copy-and-paste mentality is clear against international copyright law. This could lead to legal consequences for you and also for the owner of this forum.

Lutz
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

im sorry you see it that way lutz. but the sources are clearly given when quoted, and the whole page or book is not quoted, therefore it is impossible for anyone to claim they have written the information themselves, as their own work. wikipedia is able to be edited by anyone, but the page on thebes has information from books by donald redford among others, so i can say with comfort that the information on the page is more or less accurate.

now if you look at my post lutz, not only did i quote a paragraph, i said where it was from, and gave the link. i did not claim to have written the information, and had you wanted to check the source, the link was there for you do so. if you had checked the link, you would have found the books used to write the wikipedia article:

1) Gauthier, Henri. 1925–1931. Dictionnaire des noms géographiques contenus dans les textes hieroglyphiques

2) Polz, Daniel C. 2001. "Thebes". In The Oxford Encyclopedia of ancient Egypt, edited by Donald Bruce Redford.

3) Redford, Donald Bruce. 1992. "Thebes". In The Anchor Bible Dictionary, edited by David Noel Freedman.

4) Strudwick, Nigel C., & Strudwick, Helen, Thebes in Egypt: A Guide to the Tombs and Temples of Ancient Luxor

as you can see, these are reliable sources. now if they were internet articles, it would be another problem.
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