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Nefertiti and Akhenaten related???
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Saleyer
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Nefertiti's crown Reply with quote

anneke wrote:

I first thought she may have taken the headress from Tefnut? Akhenaten and Nefertiti were supposed to personify Shu and Tefnut, the children of the sungod Ra. But I can't really find anything about a particular headdress associated with Tefnut.


I thought Nefertiti and Aton's parents were Ay and Tiya?? Confused (I read it somewhere).
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Saleyer
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:

Nefertiti's parents are not known. The most common theory is that she may be the daughter of Ay and his unknown first wife. Aye's (second?) wife Tey was Nefertiti's wet-nurse and tutor.

Akhenaton was the son of King Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye.


Hmmm..... but I also read that Nefertiti and Aton were from the same bloodline. That they were sister and brother or something.
..lol, you might wonder where I got all this information from. Hehe. Just like about the Ankh and everything else. Cool It's just, I've read many books and done much research for years. So, don't think me weird or something. Laughing Embarassed
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hmmm..... but I also read that Nefertiti and Aton were from the same bloodline. That they were sister and brother or something.

I think you've mixed up names here. Nefertiti was a mortal, a queen of Egypt.
Aton was a god--made the only god officially worshipped by Akhenaten, Nefertiti's husband.
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Saleyer
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:13 pm    Post subject: ! Reply with quote

Osiris II wrote:
Quote:
Hmmm..... but I also read that Nefertiti and Aton were from the same bloodline. That they were sister and brother or something.

I think you've mixed up names here. Nefertiti was a mortal, a queen of Egypt.
Aton was a god--made the only god officially worshipped by Akhenaten, Nefertiti's husband.


Oh! LOL! gosh.. *slaps forehead* see, it's late over here and my brain is overworking, haha. Embarassed ...ops. *sigh* I meant EHNATON (or at least it's like that in Estonian language). I always mix it up with Aton, since Ehnaton and Aton sound so similar. geez.....*shakes head*...
But why is it Akhenaten in English??? I thought it was "Echnaton" or something. Confused
But yeah, I meant Nefertiti AND EHNATON being sister and brother, not Nefertiti and Aton, LOL, gosh. *laughs over herself* Laughing how dumb. Thanks for pointing that out, Osiris II! lol!
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is rather unlikely that Akhenaten and Nefertiti were brother and sister.
If they were Nefertiti would have held the title of King's Sister and King's Daughter, and she never claims to be any of those.

The names of the royalty are a matter of translation. If you look at the hieroglyphs it's usually ikh-n-itn and the "i" is sometimes represented as an "a" hence the Akhenaten.
I have read many different spellings of his name: Ikhenaten, Echnaton, Achnaton, even something like Khuenaten...

In a book from the early 1900's Nefertiti's name was written Neferteit.
I have also seen her name as Nofretiti, Nofretete, Nefertete...
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saleyer wrote:
Hmmm..... but I also read that Nefertiti and Aton were from the same bloodline. That they were sister and brother or something.


If Nefertiti is really the daughter of Aye, then Nefertiti and Akhenaten were cousins.

Yuya+ Tuya had 2 (possibly 3) children:
1. Tiye, would marry Amenhotep and become Queen
2. Anen, would become 2nd priest of Amun
?3. Aye

Tiye and Amenhotep III had
2 sons: Tutmosis and Amenhotep, who woould rename himself Akhenaten
5 daughters: Sitamun, Iset, Henuttaneb, Nebetiah and Beketaten

Aye may have had two wives and
2 daughters: Nefertiti and Mutbenret (or Mutnodjemet)
1 son: Minnakht

Some scholars have speculated that Yuya was an uncle of Amenhotep III!
He may have been the brother of Queen Mutemwia.

To make it even more confusing, there's also a Vizier named Aperel. Some of his titles are very close to those of Yuya and Aye. So maybe he is yet another important relative of all these people.
Aperel's wife was buried with in even more coffins than the lady Tuya who was the mother of Queen Tiye, so that this lady named Taweret must have been very important as well.
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Claire
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 4:25 pm    Post subject: nefertiti and akhenaten related Reply with quote

Exclamation Exclamation anneke thats sooo confusing! Ive never even heard of minnakht Confused I didnt even know akhenaten even had a son i thought he only had daughters!!! Very Happy Embarassed
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Minnakht's name is actually usually written as Nakhtmin.
He's probably a son of Aye (not Akhenaten).

Here's a statue of this General Nakhtmin:
http://inicia.es/de/alex_herrero_pardo/nakhtmin.jpg
Notice the damage to his eyes, nose and mouth. This means that someone did not want him to live on in the afterlife.


Akhenaten may have had a son. That would have been Tutankhamen.
There's an inscription of a Prince Tut-ankh-u-aten (his name when he was small) and this prince was a royal son. So that is likely a depiction of Tutankhamen before he became king.
Usually people think that Tut was the son of Akhenaten and his second wife Kiya.

There is a theory that Tutankhamen is actually the son of Akhenaten and Nefertiti. There is a scene in the royal tomb which shows a baby or small child being carried away from a scene where people are grieving. Some think that this is a picture of Tutankhamen. But this is not at all certain because the inscriptions are very badly damaged and the important parts are not completely legible.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well isn't there a theory that Nefertiti might have in some way been related to Ay? if so then they'd be relatives. Cause wasn't Ay related to Tiy? (goodness these names are confusing Tiy, Ay?)
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Hathorhotep
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, she was maybe his daughter, because his second wife was her tutor.
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Neteria
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hathorhotep wrote:
Yes, she was maybe his daughter, because his second wife was her tutor.
This is not a very good reason for assuming Nefertiti to be a daughter of Ay (there are other better ones around)
For our sole fact, Ay's wife was Nefertiti's wet nurse. This can only lead to speculation about relationships, but nothing that can be founded with any solidity. If Ay was Queen Tiy's brother, to have been breast-fed by his wife Tey would suggest that Nefertiti was a royal baby, but not necessarily Tiy's or Ay's daughter (by some presumed first wife).
Since we don't have Ay's DNA, any reference to it can only be made based on his parents, if they are assumed to be Yuya and Thuya. But without any of Ay's children to measure, this reference gets too vague.
On the other hand, we do have Nefertiti's children, so some of her DNA patterns can be inferred.
And this leads to finding that she was most likely Amenhotpe III's daughter, not Ay's (she couldn't have been more royal than that).
Her mother was therefore a secondary queen to Amenhotpe III, and the bill fits Queen Sitamen, whose inferred DNA can be found in the mummy KV21B.
Thus, Amenhotpe III sired Princes Thutmes and Amenhotpe (Akhenaten) from Queen Tiy, who was senior to Sitamen.
From Sitamen (KV21B), he sired Queen Nefertiti and King Smenkhkare (KV55).
Nefertiti was therefore Akhenaten's half sister, just as Sitamen had been Amenhotpe III's half sister before her. The family relationships were already far too close before all this, but with this intermingling, they crossed the line: the next generation continued the (genetic) patern and was clearly defective, to say the least.
When the DNA evidence is interrogated about confirming this closeness, it simply nods its (virtual) head, assenting the possibility.
So far, it shakes its head violently when confronted to other rival proposals.
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this really true? That Nefertiti was Akhenaten's sister? Because most men thinks this is an old theory and there is no evidence for it. She didn't have titles of king's sister and daughter.
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

neteria's theory gets shot down quite simply and quickly. for starter's, we do not have the mummies of nefertiti, or her 6 daughters. at least not proven. there is no archeological or biological evidence to suggest amenhotep III had children by a daughter.

in order for neteria's theory to work:

1) thutmose IV and iaret are the parents of sitamun. iaret is not known to have any children.

2) amenhotep III and sitamun are siblings and have children. sitamun is attested as 'king's daughter, king's great wife'. possibly sitamun is a daughter of one king and wife of another. except she does not use 'king's sister'. now she would have this title had she married a brother. now it is more plausible amenhotep III married 3 of his daughters. it seems unusual, but there is precedent in the 12th dynasty and the following 19th. now, are we to assume ramses II married his sisters, who just happened to be the same individuals as his daughters? sitamun is the daughter of amenhotep III, and obviously a child when she donated chairs to grandparents burial. now is she was amenhotep III's sister'wife, she would have king's sister as a title. akhenaten was her brother, and it is simple to say we have no evidence of her during his reign, meaning no evidence has been discovered or she was not important enough to warrant attention, or she was dead before he acceded the throne.

3) that sitamun is the mother of nefertiti and smenkhare. nowhere does nefertiti proclaim her heritage. now if she was royal, she would have titles like king's daughter or king's sister. now if she was the daughter of amenhotep III and akhenaten's sister, she would have had such titles. there is no reason to assume she did not want to associate with amenhotep III either, which is the presumed reason mutnofret does not use royal titles if she is the same individual as horemheb's queen and nefertiti's sister. this means mutnofret is sitamun's child as well. except sitamun never had children, and her body has never been found.
smenkhkare most likely appears to be the kv55 mummy, which is proven to be amenhotep III's son by queen tiye.

we do not have proof that the kv 21 mummies are the mothers of the babies buried with tut. they are possible mothers for those babies.
we also have no proof they are grandchildren of amenhotep III. all we know is that their dna was fragmentary, but what they could sequence showed they belonged to the 18th dynasty royal line. and that they seemed to maternally be related to thuya.
we do not have the bodies of akhenaten or nefertiti. therefore we can not prove nefertiti's parentage. the bodies of queens iaret and sitamun have not been identified. iarets dna will be very different to sitamuns.

so as usual neteria has no evidence for their theories.
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
... so as usual neteria has no evidence for their theories.

There is nothing to add ... Cool

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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Off course, we don't know even who are parents of Iaret and Sitamun.
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