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Who was the most interesting / important Queen?
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Who was the most interesting / important Queen?
Nefertiti
23%
 23%  [ 8 ]
Ahmose-Nefertari
17%
 17%  [ 6 ]
Hatshepsut
41%
 41%  [ 14 ]
Cleopatra
8%
 8%  [ 3 ]
Other
8%
 8%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 34

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Styler78
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hatshepsut.

No female has taken up more of my time than this lady. Mrs Tyler has had a real fight on her hands since i started studying Hatshepsut.

Wink

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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
I realized just a couple of days ago that no Great Royal Wife is known for Amenhotep II. Tiaa is the mother of his successor and son, but she was never great royal wife during the reign of Amenhotep II.

So this mystery lady (or ladies) Queen X has to be on my list of interesting Queens Very Happy

Right up there with the mystery lady who was great royal wife during the final years of Horemheb, when by all accounts his wife Mutnodjemet was dead...


I find that awfully interesting too. Is it that Amenhotep II kept his women in the kitchen as a reaction to Hatshepsut's coup or is it just an accident of preservation? Since AII's GRW didn't bear his successor she wasn't memorialized in the succeeding reign and any monuments she had may have disappeared along with hubby's mortuary temple. Or maybe there is something under the Egyptian sands just waiting to be discovered!

According to Dodson and Hilton canopic fragments attest to the existence of a Great Royal Wife Nebetnehat sometime in the mid 18th dynasty - could she be the missing consort? There is also a King's Wife Henut, similarly known only from canopic fragments. Like Nebetnehut her name is enclosed in a cartouche
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Naunacht
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to say Hatshepsut. I've been fascinated by her since I first got interested in Egypt, however that 17th, early 18th dynasty period had a series of powerful great wives. In some ways much of what Hatshepsut did was based on the accomplishments of her predecessors who also acted as regent for young kings.

Ahotep: There's a lot we don't know about this Great Wife--for example whether there was one or two Ahoteps. At any rate I'm talking about the mother of Ahmose here. First her probable husband Seqenenre Tao is killed, most likely in battle with the Hyksos. A few years later Kamose, who was most likely her elder son also dies and her young (probably around 10 year old) son inherits a country at war. This woman had to hold her country together in time of crisis and at the same time groom her son to carry on the fight. Her son later expressed his opinion of her contribution in an inscription which talks about her punishing rebels and on one occaision rallying the palace guard and saving the day.

Ahmose Nefertari: I've always thought of Ahmose Nefertari and her husband Ahmose as the perfect power couple--sort of like the Bill and Hillary Clinton of ancient Egypt. It's possible that it was her ability to govern the country in his absence that enabled Ahmose to spend much of his time on campaign. She continued to be very influential through the reign of her son Amonhotep I who also came to the throne as a child. She lived on into the reign of Thutmose I who she may have helped rise to power and apparently selected his daughter Hatshepsut to inherit her position as God's Wife of Amon. Unlike Hatshepsut, however she continued to be honored after her death.

There's a kind of fun article on the office of God's Wife and the wealth and power associated with it here http://emhotep.net/2010/07/20/periods/middle-kingdom/the-gods-wives-of-amun-royal-women-and-power-politics-in-the-eighteenth-dynasty/ and another boy Betsy Bryan http://chs.harvard.edu/wb/1/wo/pmf9z1Bt75ertbfiM20qpw/0.1
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Hathorhotep
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was Ahmose-Nefertari a grandmother of Hatshepsut? I watched before two days a movie about Hatshepsut and dr. Zaki stated that Hatshepsut saw her as an idol and model for rule.
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it does not appear ahmose nefertari is an ancestor of hatshepsut. both hatshepsut's parents were non royal. it is possible either of them was a descendant of the royal family, but obviously not a recent king.
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Hathorhotep
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hatshepsut's mother was Ahmose, who was a King's sister. So, she could be a sister of ruler who ruled before her husband, and he was a son of Ahmose-Nefertari. It's true - as you wrote - that is just a speculation.
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Naunacht
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hathorhotep wrote:
Was Ahmose-Nefertari a grandmother of Hatshepsut? I watched before two days a movie about Hatshepsut and dr. Zaki stated that Hatshepsut saw her as an idol and model for rule.


Ahmose held the title of King's Sister but not King's daughter. We can pretty much rule out the idea that she was a sister of Amonhotep I.

Some people think she was related to the royal family--others think that she was a sister or some other close female relative of her husband Thutmose I who was not, it is believed, a member of the immediate royal family.

My pet theory (for what it's worth) is that Queen Ahmose (Hat's mother) might have been a daughter of one of the sons of Seqenenre Tao or Ahmose who did not live to inherit the throne--perhaps Ahmose Sipair or Ahmose Ankh--or maybe a child of a royal daughter by a non-royal husband. This of course is speculation--I have absolutely no proof.

Since Ahmose Nefertari chose Hatshepsut to succeed her as God's Wife it's reasonable to think that she could have been something of a mentor to her. She was apparently still alive in the early part of Thutmose I's reign. Of course Hatshepsut could have been born after her father came to the throne or been as old as eight or ten at his succession in which case she would have definately known Ahmose Nefertari.
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Pharaoh Hatshepsut
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:41 pm    Post subject: Hatshepsut Reply with quote

Hatshepsut. Without a doubt. and im not saying that just cuz its my name, but because she had to take the throne for herself. no one helped her in any major way. everyone was against her, the priests, and citizens alike but she perservered and if she were male she wouldve been, without a doubt, Egypts greatest Pharaoh. Plus she was totally peaceful

Very Happy hello2 pharaohthumb
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:45 am    Post subject: Re: Hatshepsut Reply with quote

Pharaoh Hatshepsut wrote:
Hatshepsut. Without a doubt. and im not saying that just cuz its my name, but because she had to take the throne for herself. no one helped her in any major way. everyone was against her, the priests......


im pretty sure she had the support of the priesthood......
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Naunacht
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:50 am    Post subject: Re: Hatshepsut Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
Pharaoh Hatshepsut wrote:
Hatshepsut. Without a doubt. and im not saying that just cuz its my name, but because she had to take the throne for herself. no one helped her in any major way. everyone was against her, the priests......


im pretty sure she had the support of the priesthood......


I'm not so sure about the totally peaceful thing either. There are now believed to have been several military campaigns during her reign including one in Nubia for which she seems to have been personally present.
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Styler78
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Hatshepsut Reply with quote

Naunacht wrote:
kylejustin wrote:
Pharaoh Hatshepsut wrote:
Hatshepsut. Without a doubt. and im not saying that just cuz its my name, but because she had to take the throne for herself. no one helped her in any major way. everyone was against her, the priests......


im pretty sure she had the support of the priesthood......


I'm not so sure about the totally peaceful thing either. There are now believed to have been several military campaigns during her reign including one in Nubia for which she seems to have been personally present.


If Hatshepsut did not have the support of the priesthood(s) and others then she would not have accomplished so much. She had Hapuseneb was High Priest of Amun to name one.

I am not sure what the local Thebans thought of her as i have yet to see any ostraca, papyri, etc which would divulge this sort of information. If anyone know of such material, please say.

Also she does appear to have the support of more people than you would think. For a taster of the people who are associated with Hatshepsut, see:

http://www.maat-ka-ra.de/english/start_e.htm

Go to Persons, Survey

However, despite the many people in her employ, she would have required motivation, drive, intelligence and all the major attributes we see in all the "great" Pharaohs of Ancient Egypt.

Stuart Wink
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Pharaoh Hatshepsut
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:43 am    Post subject: Re: Hatshepsut Reply with quote

Naunacht wrote:
kylejustin wrote:
Pharaoh Hatshepsut wrote:
Hatshepsut. Without a doubt. and im not saying that just cuz its my name, but because she had to take the throne for herself. no one helped her in any major way. everyone was against her, the priests......


im pretty sure she had the support of the priesthood......


I'm not so sure about the totally peaceful thing either. There are now believed to have been several military campaigns during her reign including one in Nubia for which she seems to have been personally present.


She lead those campaigns as trades as to distract the people since every Pharaoh must prove themselves in battle. But if you look, there were no attacks, the Artwork was amazing, and as for the priesthood, i was unaware of that
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Styler78
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:36 am    Post subject: Re: Hatshepsut Reply with quote

Quote:

She lead those campaigns as trades as to distract the people since every Pharaoh must prove themselves in battle


Yes, they did, but not to distract the people.

Hatshepsut was a follower of tradition - set out by those who came before her. Her motivations for physical war were not recorded (or they were, but we have no evidence), so it leads to the assumption that she (and TIII) was defending the borders from imminent or future attack. Inscriptions hint that she may have actually taken part in warfare personally.

Her verbal attack on the Hyksos can be found in Beni Hasan. Her motivations are clearly set out.

Quote:
"at least four Nubian campaigns are attributed to Hatshepsut during corulership with Thutmosis III. Most likely, Thutmosis III participated in some or possibly in all campaigns to Nubia (O' Connor in: Cline, O' Conner, 2006)"


From http://www.maat-ka-ra.de/english/start_e.htm

Go to "Military Campaigns"

The Beni Hasan inscriptions and the Hyksos, see:

[url]http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/hatshepsut_inscription.htm[/url]

I'm not sure whether or not the people of Egypt would have seen Hatshepsut's military campaigns as distractions. Hatshepsut built extensively, kept up religious traditions, traded and went to war. All of these would have been expected of a Pharaoh and were part of her "job description".

Had Hatshepsut been truly passive (as was the older way of thinking), her country would have been under threat, not least from the Nubians. This may have led to revolt, reposing and goodness knows what else.

Thankfully for Egypt, Hatshepsut was not a feeble, passive individual. Her father would have "turned in his grave".. and Thutmose III would have had a polite word in her ear also Laughing

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Naunacht
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Hatshepsut Reply with quote

Pharaoh Hatshepsut wrote:
Naunacht wrote:
kylejustin wrote:
Pharaoh Hatshepsut wrote:
Hatshepsut. Without a doubt. and im not saying that just cuz its my name, but because she had to take the throne for herself. no one helped her in any major way. everyone was against her, the priests......


im pretty sure she had the support of the priesthood......


I'm not so sure about the totally peaceful thing either. There are now believed to have been several military campaigns during her reign including one in Nubia for which she seems to have been personally present.


She lead those campaigns as trades as to distract the people since every Pharaoh must prove themselves in battle. But if you look, there were no attacks, the Artwork was amazing, and as for the priesthood, i was unaware of that


We don't know enough about Hatshepsuts' military campaigns to understand their causes but I really doubt that "Wagging The Dog" or using a military campaign to distract the people played a role. The one campaign that we know of was the one at the end of her reign when a threat posed by a coalition of Asiatic warlords forced the newly independent Thutmose III to march on Megiddo. It could be that Hatshepsut's defense policies were effective. This coalition did not come together until she was dead or close to it.

I also don't know whether amazing artwork indicates that an historical period was peaceful. Classical Greece and Renaissance Italy rate pretty high on anyone's scale of artistic achievement and neither were notably peaceful periods. As for great art being a byproduct of pacifism, Leonardo Da Vinci served as a military engineer for Ludovico Sforza and Cesare Borgia--great artist--not exactly a pacifist.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Went for Hatshetsup, although not an esy choice. They all had their own strenghts, but think Hatshetsup is the most interesting and really ruled in her own right.
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