Egyptian Dreams

[thewayshemoves]

Hopefully not the same kind of thread here. I've read through tons of stuff trying to date the Exodus, and even the stranger stuff saying Akhenaten was actually Moses, or that Moses gave him monotheism and vice versa. I've read very sound math that would put Moses at the time of Akhenaten or just slightly after. The problem is that all of that presupposes that the Exodus happened at all, and that Moses was a real person. From my understanding a lot of the Torah was composed when Israel was in exile in Babylon. It strikes me as interesting that the story of Moses in the basket on the river mirror that of Babylonian king Sargon II (I think II, could be I). My question is basically this. Is there any evidence at all of the Exodus itself ever even happening in the first place? Also, is it not more likely that the story was a merging of common myths and hero legends around the time, with a bit of racial memories mixed in? Seems like Genesis, all the way through Moses have a lot in common with Babylonian myths to me. Anyone have any real references to an Exodus, or even simply Israelites in Egypt? I'm interested in that and the information is terrible.
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“To be satisfied with a little, is the greatest wisdom; and he that increaseth his riches, increaseth his cares; but a contented mind is a hidden treasure, and trouble findeth it not.”
-Akhenaton

[thewayshemoves]

What I mean by very sound math is that the math really does put Moses somewhere around Akhenaten. The problem is it presupposes that Moses did live to be 120 years, that he did in fact spend the 20 years, no more no less in Midian, and that the Israelites did wander the desert for 40 years exactly. Obviously everything I can find is not any sort of archaeology or science, just a lot of presupposition. I can't find anything real, and was hoping someone here might. To clarify my post I'm interested in the history of the Biblical God, and by extent monotheism as a whole, and here I've found my dead end and all roads seem to end up with, "OMG MOSES WAS AKHENATEN JESUS BIBLE AND STUFF." I need help, haha.
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“To be satisfied with a little, is the greatest wisdom; and he that increaseth his riches, increaseth his cares; but a contented mind is a hidden treasure, and trouble findeth it not.”
-Akhenaton

[Styler78]

Unfortunately archaeology gives us nothing Thewayshemoves.

When looking into the Exodus, nothing directly points to any Pharaoh, not a thing. We are left with doubts over the story, but people have been rather creative when trying to place a particular Pharaoh within the story.

For now that is the status as far as i am aware.
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Beloved of Hathor, Chief of Thebes, Not the Messiah just a Very Naughty Boy!

http://styler78hatshepsutproject.blogspot.com/

[thewayshemoves]

And we're probably never know.
_________________
“To be satisfied with a little, is the greatest wisdom; and he that increaseth his riches, increaseth his cares; but a contented mind is a hidden treasure, and trouble findeth it not.”
-Akhenaton

[Styler78]

That's right.
If any artifacts can be found to verify the Exodus, you will be sure to see it in every newspaper.
_________________
Beloved of Hathor, Chief of Thebes, Not the Messiah just a Very Naughty Boy!

http://styler78hatshepsutproject.blogspot.com/

[dashotep]

I once read a book called 'Act of God' by Graham Phillips which advocated a theory that Hormhab was the pharaoh of the Exodus (if I remember rightly) and that the plagues of Egypt were the result of repercussions of the Thera/Santorini eruption that also wiped out Minoan civilization. Supposedly the pillar of smoke from that event would have been visible from Egypt, so would have informed the biblical account. Some of Phillips' arguments seemed quite convincing at the time I read it.

I have heard the idea attributed to Manetho, however, that rather than there being an exodus of escaping/freed slaves that the Biblical Hebrews were no other than the expelled Hyksos invaders. That would mean that the religion of the hebrews had nothing to do with Amarna monotheism since the 'exodus' was an earlier event.

Others seem to have the idea that Ramesses II was the pharaoh of the expulsion, which would mean that the exodus took place long after the Amarna revolution had slipped from memory.

The Biblical account gives clues to the fact that the 'Israelites' were not retreating slaves. Rather they seem to have taken some of their own slaves.

Incidentally the first independent (possible) mention of 'Israel' is on the Merneptah stele.

[Lutz]

[Naunacht]

In my opinion, and this is just my opinion, trying to date the Exodus is pretty much an exercise in futility. Pick a pharaoh any pharaoh between Montuhotep II and Merneptah and you can probably make an argument for him or her (don't forget Hatshepsut) being the pharaoh who put Joseph in charge of the country or the pharaoh of the oppression, or the Exodus or if he reigned long enough both.

The idea of linking the Exodus to the Thera eruption is intriguing but the best dates we have now place that event around 1600 or earlier--a lot earlier than most people want to place the Exodus based on Jewish tradition. Likewise, we know that there was a real ethnic cleansing in northern Egypt when Ahmose kicked the Hyksos out of the country but Josephus, who claimed the Hyksos as ancestors, aside there's no evidence to link the Israelites and the Hyksos.

My personal opinion is that there are many different threads in this story, memories of different events, legends and traditions all of which came together in time to form one hell of a good story--a story that had great resonance for the people of both their time and ours.

[dashotep]

Indeed. The Exodus account probably contains a mixture of elements, from more than one historical event, so could conflate a number of different Pharaohs into one. Therefore the imagery of the pillar of fire and the natural caused of some of the 'plagues' mentioned could well relate to the Thera eruption. A tsunami resulting from the eruption could also account for the story of the parting of the waters and the drowning of the pursuing army.

There are traces in the text that the people described as Hebrews weren't slaves at the time, even while in Egypt, since one of the plagues was said not to strike down their cattle. I can't imagine that slaves would have owned livestock. Also the later references to these supposed refugee slaves having slaves of their own (including the reference in the Ten Commandments to not coveting the slaves or servants of others...)

[Lutz]

Just a reminder: Outside the Pentateuch, there is no evidence of an exodus from Egypt...
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Ägyptologie Forum (German)

[Unas]

[Lutz]

[Iker]

thewayshemoves: From my understanding a lot of the Torah was composed when Israel was in exile in Babylon. It strikes me as interesting that the story of Moses in the basket on the river mirror that of Babylonian king Sargon II (I think II, could be I).
Yes, you may allude to something significant here. During the era of communism when the press was strictly controlled (unlike or own countries in which rich people are entirely free to control the masses through their media outlets!) Czech drama, for example, became a way of spreading ideas under the cloak of fiction and art. Shakespeare is also commonly thought to have made comments on contemporary society through the relative safety of his plays and projecting contemporary issues and characters onto an historical canvas. During the period of the exile there would be the need to maintain hope in what seemed a desperate situation to many ("By the rivers of Babylon where we sat down and wept...") and a story, based on some existing legends, that inspired hope whilst giving a veiled warning to the Babylonians ("look what will happen if you are bad to us") would have been one way of doing it.

Styler78: When looking into the Exodus, nothing directly points to any Pharaoh, not a thing. We are left with doubts over the story, but people have been rather creative when trying to place a particular Pharaoh within the story.
There is no good reason for an otherwise reasonably detailed story, i.e the Exodus, to miss out the name of a central character such as the Pharaoh. (The Qur'an does the same). This lends weight to the argument that the story in it's totality was never meant to be a description of an historical event but rather a theological drama intended to inspire and warn a contemporary audience but without inviting retribution from the latter.

Nuanacht: My personal opinion is that there are many different threads in this story, memories of different events, legends and traditions all of which came together in time to form one hell of a good story--a story that had great resonance for the people of both their time and ours.
Yes but it was unfortunate that it involved calumniating Egypt which was then tarred as being the home of harsh slave drivers (the Greeks said the opposite about the Egyptians) and the killers of babies.

The Manetho leper thread in his account I think is echoed dimly in the book of Exodus when Moses hand is made to turn white and then back to normal.

[Unas]

I think we should be very careful before making conclusions that the Bible isn't trustworthy.

[Iker]