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Smenkhkare
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Is this Akhenaten or Smenkhkare? The photo I have in my 1972 copy of "Akhenaten: Pharaoh of Egypt (Aldred)" is better and looks even more like a Lady than this shows.
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sad, but it appears poor old hubby has been removed leaving only his intimate arm remaining across her back.

Idea

Well, suck my socks - Akhenaten was a woman! Shocked

Guys, how do we know this statue is of Akhenaten anyway? I know Henry Salt got hold of it somehow, but how did it become known it was Akhenaten?

AI know Aldred mentioned there was a theory (one which he did not share) that this statue might be Smenkakhare. You know, if that appellation is feasible, I could well imagine Akhenaten putting a caring arm around his Missus. He was keen on depicting himself in initimate association with Nefer-ti-itti, wasn't he? Why not with his co-ruler Missus? Quite a natural thought looking at the statue: a loving Pharaoh putting his arm around his co-ruling girl, methinks.

Could it be Kiya?
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Phephe
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smenkhkare in that portrayel to me, does not look like a girl!

Though I think it could be a good indication that Smenkhkare was related to Akhenaten! Because they both have an aspect of femininity in their features and posture.

I don't believe Smenkhkare is Akhenaten or a woman perhaps Neferteti!
More probable a son of Akhenaten or a brother! possible?
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a better quality photo in my copy of Aldred, Phephe, which shows more of the statue, and from more of an angle. When I first saw it years ago, I thought immediately it was a woman, and when I read the notation in the book about it and found it was a male (supposedly Akhenaten), I was very surprised. I still look it and say, "Nah, that's definitely a woman!" Yes it may not be Akhenaten or Smenkhkare, but I reckon it's a woman. It seems to me a logical conclusion to draw from the evidence of my eyes and my experience (I've seen a topless woman once or twice), and Egyptologists have to do some heavy theorizing to turn her (him?) into a male in my opinion.

The photo of Smenkhkare I posted on the previous page of this thread, when I was hunting through photos for Smenkhkare on Google Images, struck me immediately as being female too. Maybe Akhenaten and all his family and associates had feminine traits? Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the recent JAMA report a feminine appearance has basically been ruled out for Tut and KV55. Although much of the tell-tale fleshy parts in both are missing, there were no secondary traits of any of the known syndromes causing female traits in males detectable.

In one of the examinations of KV55 though ( I think by Derry or maybe Harrison) a slight tendency to hypogonadism in some parts of the skeleton was reported. However, it was said to be so slight that it could not have had a real impact on the appearance of the body in life, let alone give a look like Akhenaten in his extreme imagery.
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pounting then that Tut and Akhenaten (or Smenkhkare) the mummy in KV55 are neither of them female, nor presenting anything bodily that might seem 'feminine' at all. Smile

I'm really curious to know what grounds there are for thinking the yellow stone statue is Akhenaten. (I still think it looks very much like a woman).
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ever hear of man-boobs, Orwell? They are pretty common on Amarnan statuary along with heavy hips and droppy bellies. Also it was traditionally the WIFE shown with her arm around her hubby's shoulders. Sometimes the arms of both are interlaced but I know of no example with a husband putting his arm around a wife who does not reciprocate. Akhenaten and Smenkhkara probably didn't suffer from any hormonal or other disease giving them female traits but the KV55 mummy does have big hips and both men may have been a tad overweight.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orwell wrote:


Is this Akhenaten or Smenkhkare? The photo I have in my 1972 copy of "Akhenaten: Pharaoh of Egypt (Aldred)" is better and looks even more like a Lady than this shows.


Note the rolls of flesh between the 'breasts' and belly. This is an overweight male.
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't agree. I've seen two photos taken from different angles and I see a woman. I am awarde of man-boobs btw. Laughing I wish I could find the photos I refer to on Google images. Must try harder.


The photo I posted previous page this thread of Smenkhkare looks female too.

Btw do you know, Meretseger, how we know this yellow stone statue is Akhenaten?
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Robson
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe this is a specific Amarnan convention, depicting the Pharaoh like the old god Hapi, as the country's big nourisher, with generous breasts and belly, and the face looking stern and old to show him as an old wiseman. The Ancient Egyptian version of "Father Knows Best", sometimes with a "know-it-all" smile in the lips.
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Robson. But I think this particular statue is kind of naturalistic, not as 'exagerated' as some of the others you refer to. Still a gal for me - and a reasonably life-like one to boot.

Oh yes, I don't see why a guy can't put his arm around his gal, even in Ancient Egypt. Akhenaten did some strange things contrary to tradition, and maybe being depicted with his arm around his gal was one of them. Ahkhenaten was caught in a few 'intimate' positions with Nefer-ti-itti, afterall. They (apparently) were out of whack with tradition too.

Anyway, how do we know the statue is Ahkhenaten or Smenkhkare? Any takers on that?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orwell wrote:
... Anyway, how do we know the statue is Ahkhenaten or Smenkhkare? Any takers on that?

"We" do not know. In absence of inscriptions a statement of identity can meet only on the basis of art-historical and iconographic considerations.

Fragment d'un groupe royal d'époque amarnienne (Paris, Louvre, N 831)

As you can see the Louvre is also cautious when it comes to a name. Sure seems only that the person is male. The "Nemes" kerchief with uraeus in combination with crook and flail is in the Amarna period only known for male kings.

Lutz
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Styler78
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Orwell wrote:
... Anyway, how do we know the statue is Ahkhenaten or Smenkhkare? Any takers on that?

"We" do not know. In absence of inscriptions a statement of identity can meet only on the basis of art-historical and iconographic considerations.

Fragment d'un groupe royal d'époque amarnienne (Paris, Louvre, N 831)

As you can see the Louvre is also cautious when it comes to a name. Sure seems only that the person is male. The "Nemes" kerchief with uraeus in combination with crook and flail is in the Amarna period only known for male kings.

Lutz


And the picture highlighted by Lutz seems to add weight to the male-depiction. Both the face and body look male and not female, in my opinion. This statue has been subject of many discussions- many think also it depicts a female. Hatshepsut has been mentioned as the depicted person on the web a number of times, ignoring the fact that stylistically it is nothing like her own statuary.

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Orwell
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thans again for replies, guys.

Maybe we have a female in drag, so to speak, or another female "King"? Did Ancint Egyptians have 'dreas-up' parties? Manetho, does mention a female pharaoh after Akhhenaten who ruled for twelve years, didn't he? (I picked this idea up from Josephus). Perhaps, a co-ruler even, that Manetho lists as a successor?

We can't prove just from a statue, I guess, that the sex is male or female, but clearly from what you guys say, I'm not the only one who has stopped and said, "Hey! that's a gal." Not saying Manetho is ever trustworthy, or the perspective from my own eyes are necessarily trustworthy, but I am reminded of the saying I heard in a police training course in regard to conducting investifgations, "The mind is like a parachute, it only works it's open."

Lutz - I have no French neither! Smile So this statue was found somewhere in Egypt in an Amarna context? Or is it just 'Amarnan' to look at? Are there other statues I can Google and compare myself?
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neseret
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Orwell wrote:
... Anyway, how do we know the statue is Ahkhenaten or Smenkhkare? Any takers on that?

"We" do not know. In absence of inscriptions a statement of identity can meet only on the basis of art-historical and iconographic considerations.

Fragment d'un groupe royal d'époque amarnienne (Paris, Louvre, N 831)

As you can see the Louvre is also cautious when it comes to a name. Sure seems only that the person is male. The "Nemes" kerchief with uraeus in combination with crook and flail is in the Amarna period only known for male kings.


Based upon known examples of Amarna and post-Amarna art, which has a slighly different canon of proportions (see Robins 1994 on this) this is a representation of a male, with fat rolls, and wide hips.

Nothing specifically on this statue indicates a feminine form, as opposed to say, the king on the back of a black leopard, as found in Tutankhamun's tomb. This object from Tutankhamun's tomb has been argued to belong to the ephemeral "female king" Neferneferuaten, as well as other objects in Tutankhamun's tomb.

Reference:

Robins, G. 1994. Proportion and Style in Ancient Egyptian Art. Austin: University of Texas Press.
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