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kiya's origin's
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
,,,when were queens names included in cartouches? and was it only the chief queen that got that treatment, or were all wives of the king allowed to use cartouches at some point?


I'm not sure. It seems to me that only the women who were given the title / position of "king's wife" (hemet nesu) or "great king's wife" were using a cartouche. Whenever the woman's name is in a cartouche, she also carries a variety of possible titles.
Besides the titles mentioned above, she could be "Lady of the Land" (nebetawy) or some other titles.
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Montu
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Do you mean highest status at the Egyptian royal court?

I would assume that the highest status would be whomever was closest associated with the king. That would be his mother, wife or possibly daughter.

The highest status among the wives? Not sure how that was established.
I don't know for instance why Tiy was raised above all others by Amenhotep III, or why Satiah was important for a while under Tuthmosis III.

Or how Nefertari and Isetnofret managed to work their way to the top with Ramesses II. Some produced sons, but not all did I think.


might just be as simple as the king prefered such a wife over another
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montu wrote:

might just be as simple as the king prefered such a wife over another


I wondered about that too, but I think some of the wives may have had some ritual roles. Like Queen Iaret appearing with her husband on a stela. Tiye is show with Amenhotep III during his Sed festival and seems to have represented Hathor, as did Nefertari during Ramesses II's reign.

I would expect that any woman would at least have to be from a good family and know a bit about temple rituals.

I have a hard time imagining the king just picking anybody and raising her to such prominence. I think they may have needed to to a bit more than just "sit pretty". At least during the 18th nd 19th dynasty.

But other than that: whomever caught his eye? .... Very Happy
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Montu
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Montu wrote:

might just be as simple as the king prefered such a wife over another


I wondered about that too, but I think some of the wives may have had some ritual roles. Like Queen Iaret appearing with her husband on a stela. Tiye is show with Amenhotep III during his Sed festival and seems to have represented Hathor, as did Nefertari during Ramesses II's reign.

I would expect that any woman would at least have to be from a good family and know a bit about temple rituals.

I have a hard time imagining the king just picking anybody and raising her to such prominence. I think they may have needed to to a bit more than just "sit pretty". At least during the 18th nd 19th dynasty.

But other than that: whomever caught his eye? .... Very Happy



It may well be that the prime examples such Tiye or Nefertiti were exceptional, either in beauty, intelligence or most likely both and were better at manipulating their husbands etc . If it was simply down to knowing temple rituals and being from a good bloodlines or what not surely every greatwife that ever was would be on a par with them - and they clearly aren't. I think the main way that anybody rose to promence was via the favor of the king seems logical that is was the same for the wives. But then I'm no expert!
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy I'm not an Egyptologist, so I can only theorize and play with the facts as I understand them.

With Tiye and Nefertiti, there's an added component though.

Escpecially Tiye: she was just a kid it seems when she married Amenhotep III. Amenhotep was just 8-12 years old, so how much power would the courtiers have given him? And how did Yuya and Tuya - who were not that important - manage to move their daughter all the way to the front of the line in these marital sweepstakes? Would they have grown up together at court? Would a prince be more likely to meet a future wife at the court school (the kap)? Was that even open to girls? Would the royal prince have been close to the family of his mentors and teachers? Would that be a likely place where he would fall in love.

But again, Amenhotep and Tiye seem to have been a bit young to have fallen in love and form such a connection at an early age.

And some think that Akhenaten may have been very young when he came to the throne. So, similarly why Nefertiti?
With Nefertiti it's even stranger, because there were royal sisters. Why not marry one of those?

Ramesses II writes several decades later that when he grew up he was given wives when he came of age. He had a harem. Not sure how the women were chosen for him though.

Maybe Amenhotep was given a harem too. And similarly for Akhenaten. And somehow one of the women manages to rise to the top in the pecking order.

I really wish more was known about the way the harem was formed, how many women a king would have. What kind of status would the children have? Were all considered royal, or only those of higher ranking wives. What did it take to become a higher ranking wife?
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:16 pm    Post subject: Re: kiya's origin's Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
on anneke's excellent site, she says that kiya's name was written in many ways-

Quote:
Second wife of Akhenaten.

Her name is found written as: kiya, kaia, kia and kiw
Kiya had a unique title only used by her: hemet mereryt aat - Great Beloved Wife.

She was however never called Great Royal Wife. She never wore a uraeus, and her name was never enclosed in a cartouche. On the other hand Kiya is known to have had a sunshade and was depicted with Akhnetane and a daughter. The latter seem to indicate she played an important role at court.

The origins of this Queen are rather mysterious. Some think she may have been the Mitanni Princess Tadukhepa, daughter of King Tushratta. Others have suggested she may be a daughter of Aye and Tey. But there is no evidence one way or the other.

Thought by some to be the mother of Tutankh(u)aten and possibly of Smenkhare.


i know the theories that she was a foreign princess are pretty popular, but the fact that her name is written in many forms, does this hint the name wasn't egyptian? if the egyptians didnt spell the name a similar way every time, doesn't this mean the name is quite foreign to them? i.e. yuya?



A couple of questions per above quotes:

(1) Is Kiya referred to anywhere in the evidence as "Second wife of Akhenaten"? Or is it just an assumption she was a "Second wife"?

(2) Is she shown in any scenes with Nefertiti?

(3) What form of Akhenaten's name was used on the sunshade from Maru-aten with Kiya and child?

(4) "Her name is found written as: kiya, kaia, kia and kiw..." Do these names seem similar to Tiye/Yuya/Thuja/Aya etcetera, or am I a numbskull?

(5) "She was however never called Great Royal Wife. She never wore a uraeus, and her name was never enclosed in a cartouche. On the other hand Kiya is known to have had a sunshade and was depicted with Akhnetane and a daughter. The latter seem to indicate she played an important role at court."

Are there any ideas what that important role could be?

(6) "...her name is written in many forms..." In the ancient record, or in modern translations?
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