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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orwell wrote:
Cool down, mate. I'm offering ideas and looking at what's available to me. In any investigation you look at ALL the available evidence and consider various possibilities. You don't discount a pundit, say a 'Hawass' (an experienced Egyptologist) just because other experts have differing views. You take the time (as best you can) to weigh up what's available.


How about when lots of different experts say the same thing that disagrees with this particular pundit with an agenda?

Quote:
You shouldnt take things so personally, mate. First you tell me I ask too many questions. Now I'm having the temerity to question the 'findngs' of certain experts while asking if 'other' experts might not be given more respect. I know interested people have strong viewpoints, but sheez mate, calm yourself. Wink


I know we get pretty worked up here but as Barbara Merz observed Egyptology consists of tentative hypotheses passionately defended and constantly revised - or should be revised. The thing about the Amarna Tarpits is that no theory EVER sinks forever which is a real pain.

I am setting out to work out what I think happened, if that's possible. If you, or me, or anyone else stumbles on something that 'cracks the case' shouldn't all of us knowledge seekers be happy? That is definetly NOT an assertion that it'll be me who 'cracks the case' btw, thpugh but it'd be nice, nonetheless, to do it, by jingo! Very Happy


If you don't like my posts, please ignore them. I mean no harm. Very Happy

As to:
"orwell, your a cop? i don't know if you've worked homicide, but follow me here. let's say you've been called to a scene. someone had found a skeleton in a drain, and they need to identify it. a forensic anthropologist tells you the remains belong to a young man, aged 20-25, but definently on the younger spectrum. are you going to look in the missing persons reports for someone aged 30-35? no you wouldn't. ignore the objects in the tomb, and focus on the body. you have modern medical experts telling you what previous experts in their fields have said all along."

I advise you to reassess what you're saying in this paragraph. What you show is a 'preference' for some evidence (?) over other evidence (?). It's actually an emotional response when analyzed, and not particularly logical.

Cheers.[/quote]
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Meretseger"]
Orwell wrote:
Cool down, mate. I'm offering ideas and looking at what's available to me. In any investigation you look at ALL the available evidence and consider various possibilities. You don't discount a pundit, say a 'Hawass' (an experienced Egyptologist) just because other experts have differing views. You take the time (as best you can) to weigh up what's available.


How about when lots of different experts say the same thing that disagrees with this particular pundit with an agenda?
Meretseger wrote:
ther evidence. One should never close one's mind. The majority view of experts once was that the Earth is flat. In police evidence, one example of Forensic evidence, without the suport of other evidence, would be thrown out of court.

[quote="Meretseger"]
Orwell wrote:
You shouldnt take things so personally, mate. First you tell me I ask too many questions. Now I'm having the temerity to question the 'findngs' of certain experts while asking if 'other' experts might not be given more respect. I know interested people have strong viewpoints, but sheez mate, calm yourself. Wink


I know we get pretty worked up here but as Barbara Merz observed Egyptology consists of tentative hypotheses passionately defended and constantly revised - or should be revised. The thing about the Amarna Tarpits is that no theory EVER sinks forever which is a real pain.


I don't mind the passion, but Kyle has jumped to a few too many conclusions about me, my knowledge and my motives for me to forever sit back and just smile. I'm not personally offended, but it's interfering with my hidgments on what Kyle tells me. Is hios ideas based on (10 facts, (2) emotion, or (3) a heady - and less than reliable - mix of both? Laughing

Lutz, thanks for your reply. I can't readily see anything that disturbs, though this suggestion of a hurried re-burial intrigues me. I can't imagine there being a rush. Surely the tomb/burial experts knew thei stuff and would have adapted their procedures to re-bury their Pharaoh correctly. The only obvious time constraint I can see is chipping out a new tomb. The 'borrowed' tomb idea sounds adequate to cover that. As KV55 was similar (I believe) to KV62, could KV55 have been a tomb originally started for Akhenaten before his move to Akhetatet (and Atenism)? Small, yes, but maybe there would have been plans to enlarge it as the years went by 'if' Akhenaten had stayed in Thebes?


Naunacht said:
"KV55 wasn't the only mummy whose age was upgraded due to the CT studies. The Hawass team upgraded the ages of several other mummies, for example, as you mentioned, Amonhotep III in the earlier X-Ray study was given an age of around 35-40 and Thutmose III was aged at around 35 years--clearly not possible given the historical evidence. This CT Scan study estimated Amonhotep III's lifespan at around 50 and the same for Thutmose III both of which are more plausible than the younger estimates."

Are you suggesting here that previous 'age' experts got Amenophis III and Thutmosis III's 'age' at death wrong - geting them too 'young'?

Nauchact said:
"I agree that the preponderance of the evidence points to a younger age at death for Mr. KV 55 but I'm not there yet on absolutely 100% calling him Smehkhare--or Akhenaton for that matter."

So you're not totally sold on the 'age' evidence yet. That would be sound reasoning in my estimation, Naunchact - not because the 'young age' findings is proven wrong at all, but because it is more scientific to question all 'facts' and also consider other 'facts' (especially if most of the other alleged 'facts' point in a different direction).

"Smenkhkare" is a huge speculation based on existing evidence curently known to me. He/she's not mentioned in tomb 55 (nor in KV62 as far as I know), and is only attested a minmal of times in other evidence. Evidence for KV55 being, in fact, a 'Martian', is only slightly less attested in the record (i.e. a little less than than minmal evidence and so, therefore, totally non-existent! Wink ) I'm new here, of course, and I'm still finding the evidence for Smenkhkare for myself.

Akhenaten (including his Magic bricks) and Tiye (including her Shrine) are definitely attested in KV55. So at least it's not wildly speculative to think they were there at some point. I still don't think it is totally worthy of reproach to say the mummy could be Akhenaten's ---- though as things go here in Egyptian Dreams, no doubt I will be reproached for even raising the 'possibility'. Very Happy
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orwell wrote:
... though this suggestion of a hurried re-burial intrigues me. I can't imagine there being a rush. ...

The disorder / injury of a funeral of a king was after all we know a serious interference in the religious world order / "Maat". The corresponding state of religeous rules had to be made ​​as soon as possible again.

Orwell wrote:
... As KV55 was similar (I believe) to KV62, could KV55 have been a tomb originally started for Akhenaten before his move to Akhetatet (and Atenism)? ...

KV 55 and 62 were with high security never provided for a king. This is indicated next to the base, especially from the dimensions (height & width) of doors and corridor. The most probable candidate for an initiated tomb for Amenhotep IV / Akhenaton in Thebes is commonly KV 25.

BTW, KV 55 was several times re-opened and closed again (2 times is assumed, if I remember correctly). The exact reasons and data are unfortunately not known, there are only guesses.

I am sure that the cartouches and the gold mask on the coffin were intact when he first entered the tomb. I see no reason why not, also in view of KV 62 - Tutankhamen. The name of Akhenaton was not deleted there. The cartouches and the representations of Akhenaton on coffin and shrine were deleted in later time, probably no earlier than under Horemhab, more likely, from my point of view, under Ramses II.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Orwell wrote:
... though this suggestion of a hurried re-burial intrigues me. I can't imagine there being a rush. ...

The disorder / injury of a funeral of a king was after all we know a serious interference in the religious world order / "Maat". The corresponding state of religeous rules had to be made ​​as soon as possible again.

Orwell wrote:
... As KV55 was similar (I believe) to KV62, could KV55 have been a tomb originally started for Akhenaten before his move to Akhetatet (and Atenism)? ...

KV 55 and 62 were with high security never provided for a king. This is indicated next to the base, especially from the dimensions (height & width) of doors and corridor. The most probable candidate for an initiated tomb for Amenhotep IV / Akhenaton in Thebes is commonly KV 25.

BTW, KV 55 was several times re-opened and closed again (2 times is assumed, if I remember correctly). The exact reasons and data are unfortunately not known, there are only guesses.

I am sure that the cartouches and the gold mask on the coffin were intact when he first entered the tomb. I see no reason why not, also in view of KV 62 - Tutankhamen. The name of Akhenaton was not deleted there. The cartouches and the representations of Akhenaton on coffin and shrine were deleted in later time, probably no earlier than under Horemhab, more likely, from my point of view, under Ramses II.

Greetings, Lutz.


Any suggestions about who's tombs were borrowed?

I'm still dubious about this 'rushing' business, Lutz.

As to the 'last' entry into the tomb (under Ramesses II), wasn't the tomb resealed the last time with Tutankhamen's seal?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orwell wrote:
... Any suggestions about who's tombs were borrowed? ...

Since the tombs of non-royals in the Valley of the Kings were normally undecorated, no.

Orwell wrote:
... As to the 'last' entry into the tomb (under Ramesses II), wasn't the tomb resealed the last time with Tutankhamen's seal?

When it was found it was not sealed. There were only remnants of the original sealing, as far as I remember with the name Tutankhamen.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Lutz.

What makes you think Ramesses II?
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