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Smenkhkare
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:
Then his nephews would be Hwi, Dwi, and Rwi...


I'll need to know what tomb they're in before I can investiate them further, Montuhotep - but I think we're onto something here. Idea
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:
Orwell wrote:


But what if Donald Duck's great ancestor was the Pharaoh Smenkhkara! Idea


Then his nephews would be Hwi, Dwi, and Rwi...

Then we probably would need a new tread and a second cop?

Greetings, Lutz.
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Then we probably would need a new tread and a second cop?

Greetings, Lutz.


I think you're right, Lieutenant -- I have to say, with all humility, even my Investigative Brilliance can only be spread so far. cyclops_ani
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Meretseger wrote:
Thanks Lutz, as usual I am out of date. That makes what? A grand total of three mentions of Thutmose V identified?

What do you expect? He died very young. Without searching I can think of 5 proofs for Prince Thutmose (and there are wine-jar labels not included). For Thutmose V we have zero. Cool

Lutz


I see I'd better stop calling him that, it leads to confusion. How about Thutmose the High Priest, better? And I thought we didn't know how old he was when he died?
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
I see I'd better stop calling him that, it leads to confusion. How about Thutmose the High Priest, better? And I thought we didn't know how old he was when he died?


I admit to being a bit cheeky on that.

Sorry Meretseger. My excuse is I'm an Australian. Laughing
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neseret
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
Lutz wrote:
Meretseger wrote:
Thanks Lutz, as usual I am out of date. That makes what? A grand total of three mentions of Thutmose V identified?

What do you expect? He died very young. Without searching I can think of 5 proofs for Prince Thutmose (and there are wine-jar labels not included). For Thutmose V we have zero. Cool

Lutz


I see I'd better stop calling him that, it leads to confusion. How about Thutmose the High Priest, better? And I thought we didn't know how old he was when he died?


There are a few sources (some quite recent = within the past 15 years) that refer to Crown Prince Thutmose as "Thutmose V."

I can't recall the full theory behind calling CP Thutmose = "Thutmose V", but I think it did have something to do with certain scenes/reliefs, perhaps it something to do with the relief of a royal tutor, perhaps showing the name of the prince in a cartouche(?). I really can't recall at the moment.

Here's the most recent reference to a "Thutmose V:"

Freed, R. E., Y. J. Markowitz, et al., Eds. 1999. Pharaohs of the Sun: Akhenaten: Nefertiti: Tutankhamen. Boston: Museum Fine Arts/Bulfinch Press/Little, Brown and Company.

See p. 83 and 205, both which showing the small carving of Thutmose on his bier, associating the carving with "Thutmose V" (with quotation marks).

See also, for more discussion on the matter of CP Thutmose's "heir prince" roles:

Dodson, A. 1990. Crown Prince Djhutmose and the Royal Sons of the Eighteenth Dynasty. JEA 76: 87-96.

Kozloff, A. P., B. M. Bryan, et al. 1992. Egypt's Dazzling Sun: Amenhotep III and His World. Cleveland: Cleveland Museum of Art.

el-Sabban, S. 2000. The Cat's Coffin of DHtwy-ms in the Cairo Museum. DE 46: 65-78.

HTH.
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The identification could easily and unecessarily confuse someone like me who has a very limited knowledge of the subject. Though if there is some suggestion he was a co-regent at some stage, I can understand the appellation.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

neseret wrote:
Meretseger wrote:
Lutz wrote:
Meretseger wrote:
Thanks Lutz, as usual I am out of date. That makes what? A grand total of three mentions of Thutmose V identified?

What do you expect? He died very young. Without searching I can think of 5 proofs for Prince Thutmose (and there are wine-jar labels not included). For Thutmose V we have zero. Cool

Lutz


I see I'd better stop calling him that, it leads to confusion. How about Thutmose the High Priest, better? And I thought we didn't know how old he was when he died?


There are a few sources (some quite recent = within the past 15 years) that refer to Crown Prince Thutmose as "Thutmose V."

I can't recall the full theory behind calling CP Thutmose = "Thutmose V", but I think it did have something to do with certain scenes/reliefs, perhaps it something to do with the relief of a royal tutor, perhaps showing the name of the prince in a cartouche(?). I really can't recall at the moment. ...

I have never heard that there are real proofs for an idea like this. It would be nice if you could remember / find the source ... I saw this in texts until today only as pure fantasy by some Egyptologists, to convey to the reader an idea about the importance of the person of the prince. Evidence of his name in a cartouche I do not know, in any case not from the five known proofs (Cat coffin Cairo, Statue Louvre Paris, Berlin Statue on Bier along with matching Miniature Coffin and Relief in Munich).

Orwell wrote:
The identification could easily and unecessarily confuse someone like me who has a very limited knowledge of the subject. Though if there is some suggestion he was a co-regent at some stage, I can understand the appellation.

Nothing to add.

Greetings, Lutz.
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cal_105
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

" i was always under the impression kiya had predeceased or fallen from favour before nefertiti's disappearance"

I have seen it written that Kiya may have fallen from favor. But have not seen much discussion of it beyond that. Some of her dedications were usurped etc. Any proof or speculation what this really means. Did she lead a palace revolt etc? Or did the usurpations take place due to other considerations? I am just getting back into ancient Egypt after being away from it for years. Theories and information have changed quite a bit over the years. Trying to catch up.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think because akhenaten and kiya are shown together with meritaten and ankhesenamun in at least one relief, is evidence nefertiti has died. kiya's inscriptions at one point have been usurped by meritaten mostly, but also by ankhesenamun.

kiya had at least one daughter, and the usurping of some of her scenes seems to have given confusion as to two royal children: meritaten tasherit and ankhesenamun tasherit. i think no one is sure if either of these girls actually existed.

but this to me suggests nefertiti died before kiya could rise to prominence. and then she must have fallen into disgrace. i cannot really explain her monuments being usurped otherwise.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
i think because akhenaten and kiya are shown together with meritaten and ankhesenamun in at least one relief, is evidence nefertiti has died. ...

There is no relief with Kija and daughters of Nefertiti. This is pure speculation / interpretation from Aldred. I would say he knows why he is not given an exact sourse for that ...

Lutz
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cal_105 wrote:
" i was always under the impression kiya had predeceased or fallen from favour before nefertiti's disappearance"

I have seen it written that Kiya may have fallen from favor. But have not seen much discussion of it beyond that. Some of her dedications were usurped etc. Any proof or speculation what this really means. Did she lead a palace revolt etc? Or did the usurpations take place due to other considerations? I am just getting back into ancient Egypt after being away from it for years. Theories and information have changed quite a bit over the years. Trying to catch up.


It is perfectly possible that the so-called 'usurpations' indicate nothing more than a change of ownership. For all we know Kiya could have sold Maru Aten to Meritaten for a pretty penny! More probably it was either bestowed on Meritaten by her husband the new Pharaoh Smenkhkara after Kiya had retired from court upon Akhenaten's death or Kiya presented it to the new queen to ingratiate herself with the royal couple.

Kiya's special favorite status would have ended with Akhenaten's life. There's no reason to assume there was any hostility between her and Meritaten or Smenkhkara but she would be excepted to retire to a Harem palace or her own estates as a matter of course. Even Queen Tiye started spending time at the Harem palace in Gurob after Amenhotep III's death and she still had the status of a King's Mother.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems fairly clear that Kiya and Nefertiti are never shown together.

It also seems clear that Meritaten replaced both Kiya and Nefertiti in some inscriptions.

It also seems clear (to me) that an unrelated (to Akhenaten or Nefertiti) minor-wife would have her own inscriptions all over the place. Surely, if a minor-wife, she would only be shown in association with Akhenaten (and possibly Nefertiti).

I also read somewhere (and I should have noted it down when I saw it!) that Ankhsenenum has not been found anywhere using the titles King's Daughter or King's Sister, even though she clearly was both, so it was not unheard of that inscriptions could be made that don't mention a Queen's familial relationship to her King-husband.

I keep coming across Kiya and Nefertiti disappearing from the record - and the 'around' or 'sometime after' year twelve comes up with almost inevitable regularity. (Must start noting these things down!)

So - I lean strongly to the idea that Kiya was Nefertiti by a different name, and that when Kiya is shown with her daughter in some reliefs, it is her daughter Meritaten.

Nefertiti - "the Beautiful One has Come" (I think?)

Maybe when Akhenaten changed his name, Kiya changed hers too. Nothing ground breaking or revelatory in that. Not a bit odd, when you consider Akhenaten changed his name when he changed (some aspects) of his religion. Surely, his 'favorite' wife could be forgiven for wanting to do so herself. Indeed, maybe it was her Pharoah's idea.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry yet again!

It also seems clear (to me) that an unrelated (to Akhenaten or Nefertiti) minor-wife would NOT have her own inscriptions all over the place. Surely, if a minor-wife, she would only be shown in association with Akhenaten (and possibly Nefertiti) if she was Queen Bee.

Maybe Kiya had Meritaten before Akhenaten became Pharoah in his own right. Born to them when Akhenaten was Crown Prince or Junior Pharaoh, perhaps?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the durbar in year 12 is the last time the royal family is shown as complete unit. nefertiti dissapears after this, along with tiye, and the 3 younger daughters of akhenaten. meketaten had already died around this time, as nefertiti is shown mourning her in the royal tomb.

kiya and nefertiti are not the same person. there is no reason for nefertiti to demote her status from all powerful chief queen to a mere king's favourite.
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