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KV 55 = Smenkhare? Akhenaten?
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
If you go to the online Petrie museum catalog you can find some of these cartouches

bezels, rings UC23800
Fragment of green faience ring; part of bezel and shank; vertical cartouche of Smenkhkare



The image shows the djeserkheperu part of the name and a part of the ka glyph is visible.

I would not take Moseley's book too serious. For one she's not an Egyptologists and does not have all the fact. It seems that claiming that a person is a chimera when you don't have all that solid of a grasp of the archaeological record could be a tad unreliable?

I think that even this partial inscription shows a royal who is not Akhenaten, Nefertiti, or any of the other known suspects. Tt does not say Ankheperure, and the only other royal I know of with "djeser" in his name is Horemheb (djeser-kheperure stepenre), but this bezel does not match that name.



Where's the "Smk" part of it though? Idea
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a point of doubt could be given good credence if the line drawings by lepsius were all that we had for smenkhkare's existence.

but as anneke said, there are a few rings and at least one jar label with his name on it. as well as that block also mentioned.

i do agree with you on point though orwell. his name does not appear in kv 55. but that doesn't mean he wasn't buried there! look at the royal caches....there are plenty of people who should be in them, and aren't. and people who don't have names in the tombs, but are!
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
a point of doubt could be given good credence if the line drawings by lepsius were all that we had for smenkhkare's existence.

but as anneke said, there are a few rings and at least one jar label with his name on it. as well as that block also mentioned.


Have we got the actual 'form' of the name on these other items?



kylejustin wrote:
i do agree with you on point though orwell. his name does not appear in kv 55. but that doesn't mean he wasn't buried there!


The fact you and I can agree on anything is progress, methinks! Smile


kylejustin wrote:
look at the royal caches....there are plenty of people who should be in them, and aren't. and people who don't have names in the tombs, but are!


On this, I accept your view unreservedly. Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smenkhkares name is inscribed in one of the miniture coffins in KV62. If you had good eyesight and the right positioning and height you could get a glimpse of the area inside the coffinette during the last tour in NYC, and the description card claims Smenkhkares name is there. Also I believe his name is found on other KV62 items, possibly on of the burial chamber shrines. Sadly the books that mention this got destroyed in a flood last year
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i thought they were made for neferneferuaten? maybe the 'ankheperure' part is on them. lutz is adamant that smenkhkare's name does not appear in the tomb, and reeves' tutankhamun didn't mention 'smenkhkare' but 'ankheperure' was. i think because smenkhkare used ankheperure without a 't' as in ankh et khepure, it is his objects.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

could be that for so long Ankhkerure and Smenkhkare were thought of only as 1 person, some book just used one name. I miss my destroyed books. saltwater does only bad things to books
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:18 pm    Post subject: Smenkhkare Reply with quote

Have we got the actual 'form' of the name on these other items?


Yes, there are jar sealings with the name "Smenkhkare" as opposed to Ankhkheperure or Neferneferuaten. In full. If I knew how to insert an image I could show you. They were discovered by Pendlebury at Akhetaten and he published them in volume III of city of Akhenaten. Strangely Moseley doesnt appear to have read the excavation reports, which you would think were essential reading for someone contemplating a book on the period.

I would hope nobody would base their beliefs about Smenkhkare on Moseleys book. It is extremely poorly researched and she clearly has little in-depth knowledge of the period, or any period I suspect. More than that I would seriously question her ability with hieroglyphs.

She claims to have spent 8 years researching her book. I myself have spent over thirty years researching Egyptian history as a whole. Take it from me there is evidence of a Pharaoh who reigned during the Amarna period whose name was Smenkhkare Djeserkheperure. There is also evidence for a female ruler named Neferneferuaten. Both had the throne name Ankhkheperure. Neferneferuatens throne name included epithets which distinguish them from Smenkhkares throne name, which had none.

The only question is were they the same individual or two seperate individuals?

Incidentally, anyone who doubts Neferneferuaten was female would need to explain the epithet "effective for her husband" which is well attested on the co-regency stela in the Petrie museum, on two bracelets from Tutankhamens tomb, a pectoral from Tutankhamens tomb, the canopic coffinettes from Tutankhamens tomb and in inscriptions from the North Riverside palace at Akhetaten

I am currently writing a book on Ankhkheperure but as I have been writing it for about seven years already please dont hold your breath waiting for it Laughing

I am a newbie on this board but I have followed the debates on the Amarna period here for some time.

Once I discover how to post images I will be happy to show you the relevant sealings regarding Smenkhkare.[/img]
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kemetian!

I don't suppose you could give us a bit of a list of niscription items, showing the 'forms' of Smenkhkare. Without wanting to seem disrespectful to anyone's statements here, my confidence increases when actual data is presented.

Hieroglyphs translated into their proper English equivilents would be appreciated. i.e. if it's "Ankheperure", it's "Ankheperure", and if it's "Ankhetperure" it's "Ankhetperure" and if it's "Smenkhkare" it's "Smenkhkare", if you know what I mean.

You know, sometimes I get something like "Smenkhkare" when it's actually "Ankhetperure" on the inscription. I don't really want someone's theory about who someone is, I want direct translations of names where possible. (Sorry if I've spelled names wrong - I'm ad-libbing here a bit!)

Anyhow, Cheers and Welcome.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Smenkhkare Reply with quote

Kemetian wrote:
Incidentally, anyone who doubts Neferneferuaten was female would need to explain the epithet "effective for her husband" which is well attested on the co-regency stela in the Petrie museum, on two bracelets from Tutankhamens tomb, a pectoral from Tutankhamens tomb, the canopic coffinettes from Tutankhamens tomb and in inscriptions from the North Riverside palace at Akhetaten.


That sounds like plain 'sense' to me. I can't think why anyone would dispute it.

Though, I guess some might. pharaohlol
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nobody doubts neferneferuaten was female. the ponly doubts are over her identity. nefertiti, meritaten and neferneferuaten tasherit are the main candidates.

some people stilll believe that smenkhkare and neferneferuaten are one, female person. which is false. even when female pharoahs came to the throne, and dressed in male attire, the hieroglyphs still made it clear they were women. such as hatshepsut, and the remote khentkawes, mother of the 5th dynasty. tawosret didn't bother with the male dress. so i doubt the theories smenkhkare was a woman.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm glad, because my hero, Manetho, is vindicated - again!

We have two XVIIIth Dynasty Female Pharaohs. Hooray! occasion5
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
... even when female pharoahs came to the throne, and dressed in male attire, the hieroglyphs still made it clear they were women. such as hatshepsut, ...

That is not at all like that. We know inscriptions from Hatschepsut as Pharao in those the male or the female form are used. If I quite remember, it even gives a text in those both forms successively emerge.

Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
kylejustin wrote:
... even when female pharoahs came to the throne, and dressed in male attire, the hieroglyphs still made it clear they were women. such as hatshepsut, ...

That is not at all like that. We know inscriptions from Hatschepsut as Pharao in those the male or the female form are used. If I quite remember, it even gives a text in those both forms successively emerge.

Lutz


So the two successors of Akhenaten with the female and male forms could well be one and the same person. Is that so, Lutz?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orwell wrote:
So the two successors of Akhenaten with the female and male forms could well be one and the same person. Is that so, Lutz?

In theory, yes. This is supported by using only one throne name, "Ankhcheperura". The throne name of a king is normaly unique, and identified him clearly (Amenhotep IV / Akhenaton changed never his throne name). In 3000 years it was probably only one or two times (?) that a ruler used the throne name of a predecessor. A unique feature of the case would be that two successive rulers use the same throne name.

But there is to say that the female form "Anchetcheperura" not appears in combination with a different name.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers, Lutz.

I wonder if Manetho's two Acencheres could actually be one person?
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