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Query: Fernand Crombette

 
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Montuhotep88
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:39 pm    Post subject: Query: Fernand Crombette Reply with quote

On another board, a member used this to bolster his claims that Joshua stopping the sun in the sky was recorded by the Egyptians:


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April , 1421 B.C is the same in both calenders.

Joshua 10:12, where Joshua tells the sun to stand still over Gibeon and the moon in the valley of Ajalon. Since there is only a matter of a few miles separating the two sites, how can the verse be literally true unless both the sun and moon were directly overhead? In that case, the moon must have been covering the sun, the very situation known as an eclipse.

Fernand Crombette, translated some Egyptian hieroglyphics which tell of Joshua’s long day. The text starts out with an edict from the king to exempt from taxation those who had been victims of a flood some two weeks earlier. Evidently the flood had been caused by an unusually high tide. The cause, according to the Egyptian hieroglyphics, was:

The sun, thrown into confusion, had remained low on the horizon, and by not rising had spread terror amongst the great doctors. Two days had been rolled into one. The morning was lengthened to one-and-a-half times the normal period of effective daylight. A certain time after this divine phenomenon, the master had an image built to keep further misfortune from the country.
Hephaistos...grant protection to your worshipers. Prevent the words of these foreign travelers from having any effect. They are impostors. Let these enemies of the sacrifices to the images be destroyed in the temples of the great gods by the people of all classes. Make life harder for these cursed worshipers of the Eternal. Punish them. Increase the hardships of these shepherds. Reduce the size of their herds. Burn their dwellings.
Rameses, our celestial ancestral chief; you who forced these wretched people to work, who ill-treated them, who gave them no help when they were in need: cast them into the sea. They made the moon stop in a small angle at the edge of the horizon. In a small angle on the edge of the horizon, the sun itself, which had just risen at the spot where the moon was going, instead of crossing the sky stayed where it was. Whilst the moon, following a narrow path, reduced its speed and climbed slowly, the sun stopped moving and its intensity of light was reduced to the brightness at daybreak. The waves formed a wall of water against the boats that were in the harbor and those that had left it. Those fishermen that had ventured onto the deck to watch the waves were washed into the sea.
The tide, which had risen high, overflowed into the plains where the herds were grazing. The cattle drowned represented half the herds of Lower Egypt. The remains of abandoned boats broken against the sides of the canals were piled up in places. Their anchors, which should have protected them, had been ground into them. Quite out of control, the sea had penetrated deep into the country. The expanding waters reached the fortified walls constructed by Rameses, the celestial ancestral chief. The sea swept around both sides of the region behind, sterilizing the gar dens as it went and causing openings in the dikes. A great country had been turned into a wilderness and brought into poverty. All the crops that had been planted had been destroyed and heaps of cereal shoots lay scattered on the ground.

The translation that follows came from the Cercle Scientifique et Historique, France and Belgium. It is presumably taken from among Crombette’s three volumes of Verdique Historique de l’Egypte


I raised the B.S. flag, noting that, "I'll check it out, but I have strong doubts about Crombette, who appears to have been a self-taught dilettante with an axe to grind, rather than an actual Egypt scholar. In any case, 1421 BC is far too early for any king named Ramses, the first of whom reigned some two centuries later than that."

Has anyone else run into Crombette, and is there any ammo handy for me to flatten what smells strongly of a pseudoscientific argument?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Query: Fernand Crombette Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:
... Has anyone else run into Crombette, and is there any ammo handy for me to flatten what smells strongly of a pseudoscientific argument?

Just found to articles dealing with him, in French ...

Yves Nourissat : Un savant français projette une lumiere nouvelle. - In: Le Monde copte - Revue trimestrielle de la culture copte - 6. - St. Soupplets : Monde Copte, 1978. - ISSN : 0399-905X. - pp. 22 - 27

Un savant français projette une lumiere nouvelle sur les hieroglyphes egyptiens. - In: Le Monde copte - Revue trimestrielle de la culture copte - 10. - St. Soupplets : Monde Copte, 1983. - ISSN : 0399-905X. - pp. 28 - 30.

Greetings, Lutz.
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BobManske
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Query: Fernand Crombette Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:

Has anyone else run into Crombette, and is there any ammo handy for me to flatten what smells strongly of a pseudoscientific argument?


Montu, this whole thing is as phony as a three and a half dollar bill, and so was Crombette (sorry to say this about him as he is deceased and can't defend himself - but there's nothing nicer to say about him) and the same goes for his defender, Solange Hertz, who may be still around and able to defend herself.

There is no such Egyptian text. It doesn't exist. It was made up. Hertz, as far as I can tell, is someone who not only twists the definition of science to suit her own dishonest purposes but doesn't even like Vatican II. Well, there are many catholics who don't exactly approve of Vatican II but the vast, vast majority of them don't twist facts and make up others.

Now, having said all that, can you be so armed as to flatten them?

No.

It is not a matter that they are deeply convinced of their truthfulness. They know they're not truthful. After all, Crombette lied about the text, Hertz lied about the definition of science. It goes without saying that lies are willful, deliberate acts. It's a matter that they are trying to influence people. It's a completely egotistical matter, so no matter how much truth and honesty you bring against them, it doesn't matter.

Same thing with the flat earthers, the young earthers, all the other b.s artists. How can we con these people into following us (and it won't hurt if they make us richer by buying our books and contributing to our faux organizations)?

By the way, it's fairly easy to b.s. someone. I once managed, as a tour de force, to convince a graduating senior in Chemistry (yep, that would be a Bachelor of Science degree, one who was about to go on to grad school) that there were only four elements: earth, fire, air, and water. It took me all afternoon in the student union but I did it. Every single argument he raised to oppose my position was easily refuted. Well, maybe not ALWAYS easily refuted. Sometimes I had to think pretty fast.

So maybe he wasn't a very good arguer. Or maybe there are only four elements .... stop it, Bob.

Anyway, people like Crombette and Hertz (and von Daenkien, and John Anthony West, and Schock, and all the rest) are always going to have followings. Partly for the reason I just showed in my example above - you can even sometimes fool people who really know better and even more so because some people are just easily fooled. And the perpetrators are egotists. When you attack their position you are not only attacking them personally (from their point of view) but also, more to their point of view, you are ultimately not only their egos but their income.

So, I guess, about the only thing you can say is: produce the original text. Then, if they do produce some text, when professional Egyptologists look at it and pronounce the translation to be wrong, the Hertz' and Crombettes and the rest will say either that they know things that the Egyptologists don't or that the Egyptologists are flat wrong. And they will do so without proof.

The Mormon Church recently (several decades ago, actually, but recently in contrast to Crombette) encountered a similar issue. In this case they had a legitimate Egyptian text, which, supposedly, Joseph Smith had translated. Well, the "translation" occurred when Egyptology was in its infancy and the news of Champollion hadn't made it those parts of America where Smith was. The original papyrus was believed to have been destroyed in the great Chicago fire. It wasn't. It turned up, was turned over to Egyptologists, who pronounced Smith's "translation" as being completely wrong. Which is a polite way of putting it.

The pronouncement that it was actually part of the Book of the Dead (I think) did not deter quite a number of Mormons, although ultimately, almost all of them turned out to be more honest than the follows of Crombette et al. Now, I know, that by itself isn't saying very much for the Mormons, but I hope you get my drift.

a) Generally, the instigators of the faux arguments will not want to admit they've been deceiving people
b) Generally, the followers of these faux arguments will not want to admit they've been deceived,
c) Specifically, the Mormons and Catholics, almost universally, are exceptions to a) and b) above. While I'm not a Catholic any longer and never have been a Mormon, I must admire the great majority of the followers of those two religions for their honest rejection of the arguments of people like Crombette and Hertz on the one hand and the Smith translation of the papyrus on the other.

Therefore, Montu, you will never sufficient armament to "flatten" these people. That's not to say it's not worth opposing them. It is. The mere act of opposition helps prevent the spread of the disease, and sometimes helps cure some of the afflicted.

Good luck,

Bob
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Query: Fernand Crombette Reply with quote

[quote="Montuhotep88"]On another board, a member used this to bolster his claims that Joshua stopping the sun in the sky was recorded by the Egyptians:

Quote:
April , 1421 B.C is the same in both calenders.



Hey, after all the other stuff I paid more attention to this statement about the two calendars. Is the original poster talking about the Julian and Gregorian calendars? These two calendars are demonstrably different at that point in history.

For example -1420 June 01 (= 1421 BCE), Gregorian, has a Julian date of 120568 which is equivalent to -1420 June 14, Julian. The two calendars were in agreement in the 3rd century CE. They differ by three days every 400 years because, while the Julian calendar puts in a leap year every fourth year, the Gregorian calendar, which we use, does not allow leap years in years not divisible evenly by 400.

So 1600 was a leap year in both calendars, but the Gregorian calendar for 1700, 1800, and 1900 had not leap year while the Julian did.

I'm writing this on 2012 Apr 21 Gregorian which = Julian day 2456039 = 2012 April 8 Julian.

So in the -15th century, the Julian calendar which is now 13 days behind the Gregorian was, at that time, 13 days ahead.

Not the same.


Bob
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Query: Fernand Crombette Reply with quote

BobManske wrote:
Hey, after all the other stuff I paid more attention to this statement about the two calendars. Is the original poster talking about the Julian and Gregorian calendars? These two calendars are demonstrably different at that point in history.


I doubt the original poster knows or particularly cares, frankly. I have the distinct impression that if I were to say "proleptic Julian calendar" or try to draw a distinction between a Julian day and the Julian calendar, I would have to explain it in detail; at which point he'd go off on a completely irrelevant tangent anyway.

(An aside... I have a definite interest in calendars... it all started when I had to figure out when Easter would be in five and ten years for work [to plan our seasonal marketing]. That "simple" start led down some very complex and interesting paths... and I got to make my co-workers' eyes roll back in their heads when I talked about golden numbers and Roman indictions. Hurrah! ) Laughing
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Incidentally, Happy Egyptian New Year! Yesterday (4/20) is one candidate for Wepet-Renpet, under the following assumptions: the Egyptians had continued to resist the imposition of leap days, had continued counting their civil calendar sequentially from the recorded Sothic rising on July 19, AD 139 [or was it 129? forget off the top of my head. I have it written down somewhere], and assuming said Sothic rising was observed from Memphis/Heliopolis, and did not reset their civil calendar in any way to match the seasons or the shifting dates of Sirius's risings due to precession, proper motion, and other variations.

(Did I miss any important disclaimers?) Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:10 am    Post subject: Re: Query: Fernand Crombette Reply with quote

I couldn't agree more with BobManske. This "translation" does not even seem like something from an Egyptian inscription. I've never encountered Crombette's "work" before so I'm not familiar with him, but was he one of those odd ducks who would do anything to prove biblical accounts as real? In a way this would be along the lines of David Rohl, who's butchered the pharaonic timeline in a truly bizarre manner to promote his biblical leanings.

In the very least this translation is worthless without seeing a clear photo or a good line-art drawing of the source inscription. What exactly is the source inscription supposed to be? In other words, what can someone who's adept at hieroglyphs do with the inscription in proper transliteration and translational work?

It kind of reminds me of the infamous Immanuel Velikovsky and his bizarre interpretation of the El Arish Shrine inscription. Velikovsky basically was trying to make this Ptolemaic Period inscription out to be a later account of Exodus. No one of sound mine buys it (I stress "sound mine" because plenty of biblical fringies like Velikovsky's spin on it).

BobManske wrote:

Montu, this whole thing is as phony as a three and a half dollar bill...


So, Bob, I should beware if I win a bet with you and you pay me in three and a half dollar bills? I'm keeping my eye on you, mister. Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Query: Fernand Crombette Reply with quote

kmt_sesh wrote:

It kind of reminds me of the infamous Immanuel Velikovsky and his bizarre interpretation of the El Arish Shrine inscription. Velikovsky basically was trying to make this Ptolemaic Period inscription out to be a later account of Exodus. No one of sound mine buys it (I stress "sound mine" because plenty of biblical fringies like Velikovsky's spin on it).


I don't have a mine, so mine isn't sound. Some people were fixing to mine in northern Wisconsin but, never mind, it became politically too hot for them.



I used to bring my Velikovsky books to my Geology 101 class and arrange them so Doc Pirie could look down from the lecture stage and seem them neatly arrayed on my desk, titles oriented so he could easily read them. Damn near gave him apoplexy. Choke, choke. "He's an entertaining writer but don't believe a word he says" was his admonition. "God's truth", was my reply, pointing to the literature. Sounds of more choking on stage would ensue. It was great fun.

A couple days later I did it again, sat in a different desk this time to confuse him. Same results. Marvelous time. But after that he recognized me.


BobManske wrote:

Montu, this whole thing is as phony as a three and a half dollar bill...


kmt_sesh wrote:

So, Bob, I should beware if I win a bet with you and you pay me in three and a half dollar bills? I'm keeping my eye on you, mister. Laughing


Of course I would pay off in three and half dollar bills. And I'd expect change in the currency of the good ol' USofA.

In fact, I'll make a bet with you right now, Kem. I bet you three and a half dollars that you don't come to the next Chicago ARCE meeting.

Whaddaya say?

Bob
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:
(Did I miss any important disclaimers?) Laughing


Yes, one: lack of sanity (see my response to Kmt-Sesh above). But I guess that condition is pretty normal around here.

I've always loved Michael Keaton's line in The Dream Team where he and his fellow in-mates are being let out of the home for the bewildered to go to a ball game: "Gee, it's great to be young and insane". One of my favorite movies.

Montuhotep88 wrote:

Incidentally, Happy Egyptian New Year! Yesterday (4/20) is one candidate for Wepet-Renpet


Thanks! And Happy Wepet-Renpet to you, too. 139 is the right number. Good job of remembering! I always have to look it up. I just did, in fact.

Montuhotep88 wrote:

I doubt the original poster knows or particularly cares, frankly. I have the distinct impression that if I were to say "proleptic Julian calendar" or try to draw a distinction between a Julian day and the Julian calendar, I would have to explain it in detail; at which point he'd go off on a completely irrelevant tangent anyway.


Ahh, yes. He falls into category a): phonies who take it as a personal insult when they are unmasked because they realize they can't fool you. You've hit their ego, hard. In their desperation, a quick swerve off the road into the snow fields of irrelevancy is a common counter-technique they use.

As I said before, good luck with this one.

Bob
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BobManske wrote:
Yes, one: lack of sanity (see my response to Kmt-Sesh above). But I guess that condition is pretty normal around here.


Yeah, I guess I figured that was a given. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mph. You called it, Bob... the response was personal attacks, resort to unanswerable arguments, and even, spooklily, a reference to this thread (stalk much?). [Waving to audience.] And finally I was put on ignore.

I should know better than to attempt such things, but then I have a weakness for tilting at windmills.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montuhotep88, what forum is this where you were having all of the fun? You don't have to provide any links, just the name of the forum. I'm just curious.

And Bob, remember, a mine is a terrible thing to waste. Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Civil War Talk"... my other obsession. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:
"Civil War Talk"... my other obsession. Very Happy


Civil War Talk? Really? I'm not questioning your interest in the Civil War, because it is no doubt a fascinating subject and I can easily see a forum for it. What I'm questioning is...how in the hell did this debate about Joshua come up in a forum for the Civil War? Laughing

I myself am a bad, bad American. United States history just doesn't do it for me. My head is stuck in the ancient Near East, Egypt in particular.

I'm not quite the purist that BobManske is, who once joked to me that everything post New Kingdom is too "current events" for him (I love that line), but I've found it really difficult to keep an interest in anything beyond the ancient Mediterranean world.

However, as of late I've been surprised by reaction to a new exhibit we have at the Field Museum about Genghis Khan. For some reason I took the training for it and agreed to help staff the exhibit—and have found myself very excited about the exhibit. It's beautiful. I doubt I'll maintain an interest in the Mongols after the exhibit leaves, but I'm surprised by how much I'm enjoying it.

Sorry, I'm rambling. Carry on. Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmt_sesh wrote:
Montuhotep88 wrote:
"Civil War Talk"... my other obsession. Very Happy


Civil War Talk? Really? I'm not questioning your interest in the Civil War, because it is no doubt a fascinating subject and I can easily see a forum for it. What I'm questioning is...how in the hell did this debate about Joshua come up in a forum for the Civil War? Laughing


Well, like here, there's an "off-topic" area, which is currently embroiled in a debate whether science can prove anything with 100% certainty. I tend to get sucked into these things because, as BobManske noted, sometimes opposition needs to be made, if for no other reason than to call the apparent prevailing point of view into question.

Though, as I've joked before, there's not nearly as much fringe speculation about aliens in Civil War posts as in Egypt-related ones. (A few, but they're all in a humorous vein. I particularly liked a thread where someone had found a 1860s photo supposedly showing people looking at a UFO, but another member found the original image and [surprise!] no UFO, so it had clearly been Photoshopped in. So, another member added a few Stukas in the sky and Imperial Walkers from "The Empire Strikes Back" to the image, and it proceeded to get even sillier from there...)
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