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Who do you think defaced Hatshepsut's monuments?
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i always think of the painstaking chiseling away of hat's image in the deir el bahri temple. would've been easier to just usurp her inscriptions and such rather than chisel away her image? a few of her statues survive so i don't think it was a particurly vicious attack on her memory a la damnatio memoriae. they bricked up her obelisk at karnak didn't they? it all just seems a bit extreme.

i get the inscriptions refer to a woman, but surely they could have adjusted them? and if thutmose or amenhotep was worried people wouldn't know of a regency after her reign 'disappeared', they could've utilised the carvings to suggest thutmose and amenhotep had a co regency instead of hat.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've wondered about that too. Why erase leaving a very obvious blank instead of usurp? But then that's exactly what Horemheb did with Amarna pharaohs so maybe there were reasons we can't guess at.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anneke, some of the statue fragments recovered near Deir el Bahri seem to have been very brutally defaced with the eyes gouged out etc. Or could it be the workman felt particularly hostile towards their task and took it out on the statues?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
Anneke, some of the statue fragments recovered near Deir el Bahri seem to have been very brutally defaced with the eyes gouged out etc. Or could it be the workman felt particularly hostile towards their task and took it out on the statues?


Ah, interesting point. Gouging out eyes is a rather hostile thing to do. Condemning them to blindness in the afterlife is rather harsh. I will have to look around at some of the images again. That does beg the question if it was Tuthmosis III, Amenhotep II or even overzealous workers.
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Styler78
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
i always think of the painstaking chiseling away of hat's image in the deir el bahri temple. would've been easier to just usurp her inscriptions and such rather than chisel away her image? a few of her statues survive so i don't think it was a particurly vicious attack on her memory a la damnatio memoriae. they bricked up her obelisk at karnak didn't they? it all just seems a bit extreme.

i get the inscriptions refer to a woman, but surely they could have adjusted them? and if thutmose or amenhotep was worried people wouldn't know of a regency after her reign 'disappeared', they could've utilised the carvings to suggest thutmose and amenhotep had a co regency instead of hat.


Work carried out by CFEETK at Karnak have found a number of items around the obelisk to suggest that the wall was built by Hatshepsut herself and not added later. I agree that the attack on Hatshepsut's memory wasnt vicious. The only issue is the treatment of the Deir el Bahri statues, which in many cases were destroyed.

As far as usurptations- this was done in some cases. The issue is that Hatshepsuts face was narrower than Thutmose III in statuary. This would make recarving tricky as you would have to add material, rather than altering the shape of the face to look like TIII. If this was the problem for TIII, it would be easier to smash her statues and bury them out of site.

The actual work of defacements and destruction at Deir el Bahri was carried out by those under orders. Who knows the motivations behind the exact treatment of the statues? Noses and uraeus are the first things to go if a statue falls on its face. Eyes are more personal, but again it was the work of the labourers and not the Pharaoh giving the orders. Many of the statues eyes were not treated in this way.
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Styler78
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to add to the information already discussed:

The Chapel Rouge was likely finished by Thutmose III and possibly even used by him. In "Karnak Evolution of a Temple", Elizabeth Bylth there is a suggestion he may have seen this as "his" monument. He is of course shown on the chapel performing rites, etc with Hatshepsut.

It is this suggestion which would allow the Chapel Rouge to have continued in a "complete" state in TIIIs time. At some point he comissioned his own chapel, which seems to have stood until the time of Philip Arrhidaeus, when the central shrine was remodelled for the last time.

IF the Chapel Rouge stood in the area TIII erected his own chapel- it would have been carefully dismantled in the time of TIII. If it was NOT intended as a central shrine, then it may have been around in the time of Amenhotep II or III.

I say carefully dismantled due to the condition of the blocks when discovered in the 3rd pylon of Karnak (built by Amenhotep III). They, along with the very many other monument fragments were "aparently put into the foundations with great care AND in a given order...." (BLYTH).

Also the condition of the blocks in the Chapelle Rouge is actually very good. It seems to have been dismantled and the blocks stacked in a holding area/ blockyard until they could be re-used.

Whether or not the Chapel Rouge was standing or not in the time of Amenhotep III, it would have been placed between the areas of the 4th pylon and the Middle Kingdom court. The building of the 3rd pylon ensured everything close by was swept away (including the works of Amenhotep III himself). The Chapel Rouge would have been gone by this stage.

No difinitive answer has been given to the final days of the Chapelle Rouge.

Stuart.
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