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Climing pole in honor of the god Min
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aromagician wrote:
... How can you understand what was meant , or how the symbols used influenced the people at the time ...

Ultimately, no one can really do. We go with our current knowledge and awareness of approaching on these things. Not with that of an Egyptian of the 2nd or 3rd millennium BC. The latter is even not really known to us, clear boundaries of classical studies.

Lutz
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Aromagician
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree, we change yes, our viewpoints change, but the basic theme of our myths and religions remain the same.
The interpretation of the symbols and archetypes are suberbly illustrated in Joseph Campbells book The Hero with a Thousand faces.

http://www.slideshare.net/UnitB166ER/the-hero-with-a-thousand-faces-by-joseph-campbell

See the section on the World navel, slide 131
The effect of the successful adventure of the hero,is the unlocking and the release again of the flow of life into the body of the world. The miracle of this flow may be represented in physical terms as circulation of food substance, dynamically as a flow of energy or spiritually as a manifestation of Grace. Such varieties of images alternate easily, representing three degrees of condensation of one life force. An abundant harvest, is the sign of Gods grace, Gods grace is the food of the soul, The lightning bolt is the harbinger of fertilising rain and at the same time the manifestation of the released energy of God. Grace, food subtance and energy pour into the living world and wherever they fail life decomposes into death.
The torrent pours from an invisible source, the point of entry being the symbolic center of the Universe. The immoveable spot to the buddha legend, around which the world may be said to revolve. Beneath this spot is the earth supporting head of the cosmic serpent, the dragon symbolic of the waters of the abyss, which are the life creative energy and substance pf the demiurge, the world generative aspect of immortal being. The tree of life i.e the Universe itself grows from this point. It is rooted in the supporting darkness; the golden sun bird perches on its peak; a spring and inexhaustible well bubbles at its foot.
Or the figure may be a cosmic mountain, with the city of the Gods like a lotus of light at its summit. and in its hollows the city of the demons, illuminated by precious stones.
Again the figure may be that of the Cosmic man or woman, ( for example the buddha Himself, or the dancing goddess Kali) seated or standing on this spot, or even fixed to the tree, ( Jesus, Wodan, Attis) For the hero as an incarnation of God is himself the navel of the world. The umbilical cord through which the energies of eternity break into time.
Thus the world navel, is the symbol of continuous creation: the mystery of the maintenance of the world through that continuous miracle of vivification that wells within all things.


On slide 134 it says
[url]Such temples are designed as a rule to simulate the four directions of the world horizon , the shrine or the altar at the center being symbolic of the Inexhaustible point. The one who enter the temple compound and proceeds to the center is imitating the deed of the original hero. His aim is to rehearse the universal pattern as a means of evoking within himself the recollection of the lifecentering life renewing form.[/url]

The world navel is also called the Axis mundi.

There is more about the goddess, the sun whatever. AS Min is the god of fertitlity and relates to the harvest I assumed that perhaps he climbs the pole to bring the grace of the gods from heaven to earth. he is the god of the thunderbolt, which symbolises fertilising rain.'
Wilkinson says that during the middle kingdom Min became associated with the god Horus, as Min-Hor and as result was sometimes described as the son of Isis. So it is possible at that stage, that he was associated with the ascending aspect of the God Horus as he comes out of the underworld and of the new King. His arm is pointing upwards, which is not understood, however it could be as he is pointing to the heavens from which his fertility comes from.I am not sure of the ritual " the coming forth of Min" and what it entailed ( it was held at the beginning of the harvest, but is interesting that the MAYPOLE ceremony is also held at the beginning of spring or at harvest time isnt it?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aromagician wrote:
I disagree, we change yes, our viewpoints change, but the basic theme of our myths and religions remain the same. ...

You are free, of course, to do so but that does not change my opinion. Certainly the issues are more or less unchanged, just human. But the perceptions and their interpretation have changed, some of them drastic. And I do not believe that we really can penetrate or understand the mind world of a man from 5000 years ago. As well as there are not helping further similar instincts or primal fears. By the way, who says and why that they could not have changed (at least in some areas) also?

Aromagician wrote:
... The interpretation of the symbols and archetypes are suberbly illustrated in Joseph Campbells book ...

Probably better: an interpretation, done from the vision and with the experience of today. Without great search I'm quite confident there are also others, possibly conflicting.

Aromagician wrote:
... On slide 134 it says
[url]Such temples are designed as a rule to simulate the four directions of the world horizon , the shrine or the altar at the center being symbolic of the Inexhaustible point. The one who enter the temple compound and proceeds to the center is imitating the deed of the original hero. His aim is to rehearse the universal pattern as a means of evoking within himself the recollection of the lifecentering life renewing form.[/url]

The world navel is also called the Axis mundi. ...

Annoying is in this context only the fact that the sanctuary in ancient Egyptian temples is not in the center of the building. Generally it is in the area most far away of the entrance.

Aromagician wrote:
... AS Min is the god of fertitlity and relates to the harvest I assumed that perhaps he climbs the pole to bring the grace of the gods from heaven to earth. ...

I can only recommend once again and before any deep psychological considerations to deal with the relatively abundant sources for the ancient Egyptian ritual "Climbing for Min." The god is not climb. The king and members of his court erect the poles for a tent, probably in the style of an archaic sanctuary for the god Min. People worshiping the deity climb the poles to accomplish the tent structure and to honor Min with doing so. More texts and pictures do not give ... and it makes sense.

Lutz
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Priest of Hekat
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just as a modern aside to this thread. Last night we watched a film from 1990 which also included Harry Burton footage of the Abu Hagag Moulid festival. This included reference to the climbing of the pole which was still practised as part of the festival ritual.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I attended several of these Mulids to honor the local saint - Abu Haggag - in Luxor. At bar climber I can not remember actually. However, it is generally agreed, and also for everyone visible that some elements known from the pharaonic Opet festival can be find at this popular festival. During the street parade boats will be carried. The comparison to the barque procession of the Triad from Karnak to the Temple of Luxor and back comes to the mind. The traditional rod fights / dances of the men are known from the time of the pharaohs. "Climbing for Min" could very well one of the rituals of the Opet festival. The presentations at the pylon of Luxor Temple from Ramses II. point in this direction.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the reliefs showing the Opet festival at Luxor Temple (Tutankhamun, usurped by Horemheb) male dancers with the typical headdress of the Libyans (two feathers) appear. These feathers are also worn by the climbers in the ritual for Min. See :

Reliefs and Inscriptions at Luxor Temple - Volume 1 : The Festival Procession of Opet in the Colonnade Hall. - [OIP 112]. - Chicago : The Oriental Institute, 1994

One example is on Plate 25.

Greetings, Lutz.
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