Egyptian Dreams

Lutz · Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:02 pm Post subject:

Or do not close your web browser and use his rewind button. So you come back to your text and than you "Copy" it and "Paste" after new login. With my browser (Firefox) this works ...

Greetings, Lutz.

Orwell · Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:20 pm Post subject:

That makes sense. Thanks guys. Smile

anneke · Queen of Egypt Joined: 23 Jan 2004 Posts: 9305

Orwell · Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:04 am Post subject:

Orwell · Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:07 am Post subject:

Sorry Annkke. Above should be -

Orwell wrote: "Or even, a non-member, who has certain genetic factors that are coincidentally similar to some found in the foetuses?"

Annekke wrote: "I personally find that to be a bit more unlikely."

Orwell wrote: "Can you explain why you think that? Please exclude reference to any non-DNA evidence you know of. I want to know what it is specifically about the DNA tests that make you say it."

Meretseger · Priest Joined: 02 Jan 2010 Posts: 588

Ikon · Scribe Joined: 09 Jul 2012 Posts: 275

Well, there are many worthy and very interesting posts here. However, there is something missing I think, something also missing from the Hawas documentary. There is much about DNA etc, which is of course important, but sometimes simple gut feeling can also provide an answer. Before seeing documentary I did not know about mummies in KV21, so had no preconceived ideas of who they may be. Yet, as soon as Hawas pulled the cloth from mummy of older lady and exposed her jawline, I immediatly thought this was Nefertiti. Jawline is remarkably like her bust, yet it seems I am alone in noticing this.........

EgyptianRose · Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:01 am Post subject:

kylejustin · Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:13 am Post subject:

there is no evidence that nefertiti was related to akhenaten. looking at the nobility in any country though, you will see links with the royal family. the modern british aristocracy descends from charles II, and most definently from edward III. so nefertiti may have had distant royal blood.

if you look at the DNA sequencing, tut's babies have inherited DNA from thuya, tiye's mother, that has not come down from tiye. so this means their mother is a female relative of thuya's. daughter, sister, cousin etc. it has long been thought nefertiti was a grandchild of yuya and thuya, hence tiye's niece. most put ay as her father, and tiye's brother. which is plausible, but it is based on him holding similar titles to yuya. i suspect ay married tiye's sister, if nefertiti is tiye's niece.
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heaven won't take me.......hell's afraid i'll take over.....

karnsculpture · Scribe Joined: 27 May 2010 Posts: 307

There's a lot of "ifs" here!

This post is an attempt to get the facts straight for myself, I hope this is helpful to others.

We start with the "knowns" - Tutankhamun, Yuya and Thuya were all found in their original places of burial, all are named multiple times and their DNA is related (they are his great-grandparents).

The foetuses in Tutankhamun's tomb are his children.

The mummy known previously as KV35 Elder Lady (or EL) is the daughter of Yuya and Tuya, therefore Tiye. As an aside, this mummy closely resembles known images of Tiye right down to the hairstyle shown at Amarna and on her shrine.

Tiye only had one known husband, Amenhotep III, and the mummy labelled as that King does turn out to have DNA that makes him an ancestor of Tutankhamun, so it seems likely that this is a correct identification.

Tiye and Amenhotep III are the mother and father of the KV35 younger lady (KV35YL) mummy and of the remains found in KV55, who are full brother and sister. KV55 and KV35YL are the parents of Tutankhamun but KV35YL is NOT the grandmother of the foetuses in Tutankhamun's tomb. I believe that this proves she is not Nefertiti.

1) The DNA findings suggest that the mother of the foetuses in Tutankhamun's tomb is one of the mummies from KV21, known as KV21A.

2) If this is Akhenesenamun (and not an unknown secondary wife of Tutankhamun) then the KV35 younger lady cannot be Nefertiti, because the KV21 mummies (who appear to be sisters) have DNA alleles that so not appear with the rest (Tutankhamun, Amenhotep III, Tiye, KV55 (Akhenaten or Smenkhkare) or KV35YL). This different DNA must have come from their mother - unquestionably Nefertiti according to many examples of inscriptional evidence. That is assuming that KV21A is not an unknown wife of Tut - which seems unlikely as no other wife is known from his almost complete tomb or from any other inscription.

3) However, and this is where it gets tricky, it's by no means certain that the KV21 ladies are the daughter of KV55 - which they should be if that mummy is Akkenaten. They are definitely not the daughters of KV35YL.

4) So we can't yet really have the remains of Akhenaten or Nefertiti.

5) This means by implication that KV55 is Smenkhkare (and that he was a younger son of Amenhotep III and Tiye), and that he was married to a full sister - and they were the parents of Tutankhamun.

So, in conclusion, the KV21A mummies point towards the existence of Akhenaten and Nefertiti, though we may never find their mummies we can understand:

a) Akhenaten was the son of Tiye and Amenhotep III - and this is backed up by a lot of inscriptional evidence
b) Nefertiti was not the child of Tiye and Amenhotep III, which fits with other evidence (we don't know her parentage).

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=185393

Meretseger · Priest Joined: 02 Jan 2010 Posts: 588

5) This means by implication that KV55 is Smenkhkare (and that he was a younger son of Amenhotep III and Tiye), and that he was married to a full sister - and they were the parents of Tutankhamun.

That's certainly the way I see it. Granted it does make things rather more complicated but royal families and successions often are complicated. Given Tutankhamun's age he had to have been born during Akhenaten's reign which raises the question of how common the marriages of princesses to secondary sons was. Was this a deliberate and obviously political move to supply an alternative line of succession or was it a routine arrangement for providing a royal daughter with a husband of suitable rank?

Sothis · Priest Joined: 16 Nov 2009 Posts: 659

Ikon · Scribe Joined: 09 Jul 2012 Posts: 275

I think it is mummy KV21B, as I think KV21A is the one without a head. I think sometimes it is as good to charge through front door than creep around back of house, climb onto roof, make elaborate preperations to climb down chinney, tick some boxes, do "health and safety" check and such and so forth. Perhaps until we know exactly who Nefertiti is, then all options are still open, and then I think we will never know full truth without time machine.

Likely this is last post with this ridiculous username. I accidently entered my username in Cyrillics, so unless admin can change this, then I will have to open new account, as Ikon, probably.....Admin - Already done Wink