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KV55
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
I think it may be worth mentioning that Lutz's information confirms that the coffin in kv55, however ornate, was not actually created with the cloisonné technique ...

Since this work requires a burning process of the object, it is likely on a wooden body not even possible, or?

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
... The kv55 coffin was of was carved wood covered in gold and then inlaid. FWIW this might indicate that the Tutankhamun/Ankhkheperure coffins where of a later date and using a more advanced inlay technique. ...

This work method is used in ancient Egypt at least since the Middle Kingdom. I do not think it really is good for dating. The procedure is surely more linked with the object to be processed, it depends on the material this is from.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Since this work requires a burning process of the object, it is likely on a wooden body not even possible, or?


Just to clarify; creating a cloisonné inlayed decoration does not require "burning". 1)One does not "burn" metals in order to make them workable. In some cases metals are heated until they become malleable (or, very rarely, molten, in the case of casting) but they are never burned, per se, as this would destroy the metallic lattice. 2)When using high carat gold heating to create molten viscosity is usually unnecessary. High carat gold is very workable on it's own and a soldered join can be created using little or no heat, outside of that created by friction, depending on the desired effect. Unlike enameled work, creating cloisonnes for cut inlays would not necessarily require any heat.

Quote:
This work method is used in ancient Egypt at least since the Middle Kingdom. I do not think it really is good for dating. The procedure is surely more linked with the object to be processed, it depends on the material this is from.


I agree that faience glass and inlay had been in use since the middle kingdom but there is a difference to the various techniques used over many hundreds (or thousands) of years to create inlayed decorations and I'm wondering if studying advances in these techniques can perhaps give us some clues as to when certain items may have been created.

It has been attested in many publications, beginning with Howard Carter's, that the middle coffin associated with the burial of Tutankhamun is inlayed using a technique called "Egyptian cloisonné", which is somewhat less advanced than modern cloisonné but still quite sophisticated. This is the only example I'm aware of in which this technique was used on a coffin(as opposed to jewels, and even then methods evolved over the years from the middle kingdom to the new kingdom). Martha Bell, in her paper "An Armchair Excavation Of KV55", describes a cloisonné bead found in tomb KV55 but no other cloisonné objects.

Has anyone ever looked into studying subtle advances in craftsmanship in order to date any of the Amarna objects from one king's reign to another's? Is it possible that some insight as to the repurposing of burial goods could be gleaned in this way?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, I should have added that the cloisonné elements, ie, Nekhbet and Wadjet, the sections of rhishi, most likely would have been created separately and then applied to the wooden structure of the coffin because the cloisons create a solid structure - unlike repoussé or chasing where the wood of the coffin would have been carved to receive the inlays, covered with gold foil and inlayed last, as was done with the KV55 coffin.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am really not an expert in this production method but everything I can find on the net about it says it requieres burning ...

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
... It has been attested in many publications, beginning with Howard Carter's, that the middle coffin associated with the burial of Tutankhamun is inlayed using a technique called "Egyptian cloisonné", which is somewhat less advanced than modern cloisonné but still quite sophisticated. ...

Can you give an exact source for that please?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I am really not an expert in this production method but everything I can find on the net about it says it requieres burning ...


There is no burning involved for this sort of method (Egyptian cloisonné) - there can be heating but not enough to ignite wood, especially not with high carat gold (over 18k). What you may have read most likely involves other metals which need higher heat to become malleable.

Quote:
Can you give an exact source for that please?


Directly in my hand I have "Tutankhamun" by T.G.H. James. p 87; "It is made of wood covered with sheet gold. The decoration of the body is carried out in a cloisonné technique, which involved the inlaying of pieces of colored glass and semiprecious stones in cells or cloisons made by soldering thin strips of gold to the main body of the coffin. The inlays are individually cut to fit the cloisons."
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
Quote:
I am really not an expert in this production method but everything I can find on the net about it says it requieres burning ...

There is no burning involved for this sort of method (Egyptian cloisonné) - there can be heating but not enough to ignite wood, especially not with high carat gold (over 18k). What you may have read most likely involves other metals which need higher heat to become malleable. ...

Wikipedia - Cloisonné :

Quote:
"Cloisonné is an ancient technique for decorating metalwork objects, in recent centuries using vitreous enamel, and in older periods also inlays of cut gemstones, glass, and other materials. The resulting objects can also be called cloisonné. The decoration is formed by first adding compartments (cloisons in French[1]) to the metal object by soldering or adhering silver or gold wires or thin strips placed on their edges. These remain visible in the finished piece, separating the different compartments of the enamel or inlays, which are often of several colors. Cloisonné enamel objects are worked on with enamel powder made into a paste, which then needs to be fired in a kiln. ...

I am not sure that following this definition it is possible to say "The decoration of the body is carried out in a cloisonné technique". Maybe parts of it, like the vulture and uraeus or the beard on the head, but not the rishi decor as whole. By the way, to judge about this it would be requiere an investigation of the coffin from Tutankhamun in the form what has done on the coffin from KV 55 in Munich. And I know no publication of such an investigation ...

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Cloisonné enamel objects are worked on with enamel powder made into a paste, which then needs to be fired in a kiln. ... (My bold.)


As I stated upthread, cloisonné enamel is a different method than "egyptian cloisonné". It is a more modern process that does require firing to melt the enamel into the cloison. Egyptian cloisonné is somewhat less advanced, being a much earlier method and doesn't require the same sort of firing because there is no powered enamel (essentially glass) to melt. The inlays are cut and set into position and not afterward fired. The soldering of the gold requires some heating but because gold, especially high carat, very thin gold, is such an efficient conductor of heat (the most efficient of all the metals) it does NOT require a great deal of heat and certainly not enough to ignite wood if properly worked.

The definition of the technique you have posted is NOT the exact same technique as that of the earlier form of Egyptian cloisonné - it being a prototype of the later technique which you described above. Keeping that in mind (that the technique you have quoted above is not the same as ancient Egyptian cloisonné, but a later enamel method) I feel that Mr James, who was Keeper of Egyptian Antiquities for the British Museum has a strong grounding for making his assertion that the middle coffin of Tutankhamun is worked in the ancient Egyptian cloisonné method. And it is possible to detect this method with an external examination.

I hope this makes sense because I feel we may be experiencing a language issue. Smile
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
I feel we may be experiencing a language issue. Smile

Maybe ... I still think however that the use of the term in connection with the second coffin of Tutankhamun is incorrect and misleading. Ultimately, it's probably just some kind of inlay technique, and has nothing to do with the very clear definition of cloisonné.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Ultimately, it's probably just some kind of inlay technique, and has nothing to do with the very clear definition of cloisonné.


My definition, as well as that of Mr James, was very clear and in great detail. I also repeated, in detail, a number of times that the definition you posted is for a later, by nearly a thousand years, more advanced technique than the ancient Egyptian technique. But the Egyptian technique is still a form of cloisonné because it uses cloisons to hold the inlays in place.

Cloisonné enamel
"The earliest surviving cloisonné pieces are rings in graves from 12th century BC Cyprus, using very thin wire.[9] Subsequently enamel was just one of the fillings used for the small thick-walled small cloisons of the Late Antique and Migration Period style described above. From about the 8th century, Byzantine art began again to use much thinner wire more freely to allow much more complex designs to be used, with larger and less geometric compartments, which was only possible using enamel"

Early cloisonné techniques
"Cloisonné first developed in the jewellery of the ancient Near East, typically in very small pieces such as rings, with thin wire forming the cloisons. In the jewellery of Ancient Egypt, including the pectoral jewels of the Pharaohs, thicker strips form the cloisons, which remain small.[2] In Egypt gemstones and enamel-like materials sometimes called "glass-paste" were both used.[3]"

right off hand I can offer these references;

Mey Zaki wrote in "The Legacy of Tutankhamun In Art And History". p36 "... it is of wood covered with a sheet of gold leaf and decorated with a cloisonné pattern of inlays of coloured glass paste and semiprecious stones, surrounded by thin strips of welded gold."

and

"Tutankhamun" by T.G.H. James. p 87; "It is made of wood covered with sheet gold. The decoration of the body is carried out in a cloisonné technique, which involved the inlaying of pieces of colored glass and semiprecious stones in cells or cloisons made by soldering thin strips of gold to the main body of the coffin. The inlays are individually cut to fit the cloisons."

There are other documents stating the same and I will attempt to find them, though it may take me some time.

Generally, what is said is that the middle coffin was indeed made using an early form of cloisonné and not repoussé or chasing.

I would be very interested in any documentation that disputes this.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I have this working method probably misunderstood. I walked away from the principle that the inlayed material must be burned, to call it this way. Better to read things of which you have no idea in your native language ...

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
... I would be very interested in any documentation that disputes this.

As far as I know there is no real investigation and discussion of the coffins from KV 62. I know and have just a short work about the gold coffin ...

Robert B. Partridge : Tutankhamun`s Gold Coffin - An Ancient Change in Design. - In: GM 150. - 1996. - pp. 93 - 98.

By the way, here on page 93 :
Quote:
"... The second coffin is of wood covered with gold and inlaid with glass paste. ..."


Several authors (eg Partridge & Eaton-Krauss in her work about the stone sarcophagus) point and mention a planned work over the three coffins and the canopic ensemble by Aidan Dodson. But I was not able to find one. I have Aidan Dodson : The canopic equipment of the kings of Egypt. - [Studies in egyptology]. - London : Paul, 1994. - ISBN : 0-7103-0460-9. - XXII, 215, XLVIII p. But I think this book can not be meant, as it appeared before the said publications. Maybe this article is meant ...

Aidan Dodson : The canopic coffinettes of Tutankhamun and the identity of Ankhkheperure. - In: Egyptian museum collections around the world - 1. - Cairo : Supreme Council of Antiquities, 2002. - ISBN : 977-424-777-9. - pp. 275 - 285.

I ordered the book online in State Library Berlin, will get it on monday.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Ankhetmaatre
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Aidan Dodson : The canopic coffinettes of Tutankhamun and the identity of Ankhkheperure. - In: Egyptian museum collections around the world - 1. - Cairo : Supreme Council of Antiquities, 2002. - ISBN : 977-424-777-9. - pp. 275 - 285.


I am considering purchasing that one myself. I have read in other places that those coffinettes are also inlayed using the Egyptian cloisonné method, which may create a connection between them and the middle coffin.

To speak to the issue of heating/burning or "welding" of precious metals in antiquity here is an excerpt from "Metal Working in the Ancient World" by Herbert Maryon from American Journal of Archaeology, vol.53, no.2 (Apr. - Jun., 1949), pp. 93-125 ...

"The ancient craftsman did not weld gold or silver, copper, bronze or brass. But with the introduction of modern means of producing
higher temperatures, we can. Therein lies the root of the trouble. Archaeologists, relying on their acquaintance with modern methods, or misunderstanding the ancient methods, have attributed to the ancient workers power which, with their primitive furnaces, they could never have attained.
The different methods, other than riveting, by which pieces of metal may be fastened together will now be examined.
Pressure Welding, Cold. By pressure, finely divided particles of metal may be welded into a coherent mass with a specific gravity comparable with that of the normal metal, and with a crystalline structure. A pressure of several tons to the square inch may be required.8It is probable, therefore, that at the pressure necessary to procure cohesion, the local temperature may rise high enough actually to melt the particles, and the resulting structure become a fused one. Not every metal, however, requires so high a pressure. Pure gold, in the form of foil or sponge, is employed by a dentist for stopping teeth; he is able to weld it into a compact mass by hand-pressure alone."

and here:

"Pressure Welding,Hot. Here again, no part of the material is molten. In welding iron, the
metal is not liquid, or it would run like water. The heat required is about 1350' C. At
welding temperature, scales of iron oxide flake off continually from the incandescent sur-
faces, leaving the metal clean. The surfaces to be welded thus come into intimate contact.
The iron being soft, the weld takes place by the breaking up of the crystals at the surface
under the hammer blows, and the regrowth of the fragments into new crystals, interlocking across the joint. The earliest welded joint known to me is on an iron headrest from the
tomb of Tutankhamen, ca. 1350 B.c.o"

Mr Maryon goes on to discuss the differences in cloisonné, champlevé, reposussé and chasing and many other ancient metalworking techniques.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
Quote:
Aidan Dodson : The canopic coffinettes of Tutankhamun and the identity of Ankhkheperure. - In: Egyptian museum collections around the world - 1. - Cairo : Supreme Council of Antiquities, 2002. - ISBN : 977-424-777-9. - pp. 275 - 285.

I am considering purchasing that one myself. I have read in other places that those coffinettes are also inlayed using the Egyptian cloisonné method, which may create a connection between them and the middle coffin. ...

The 2 volumes "Egyptian Museum Collections around the World - Studies for the Centennial of the Egyptian Museum, Cairo" are available, very cheap (LE 300.00 = around 38,- €), in Egypt. I just did not purchased them until now, because they are so heavyweight ...

Greetings, Lutz.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to start the discussion again (don`t panic, Meretseger Twisted Evil ) just to complete the documents. I had some trouble to find the book here in German librarys, so maybe in other countrys it might be also difficult?

Fifth International Congress of Egyptology - Cairo 29. Oktober - 3. November 1988 - Abstracts of Papers. - Cairo : E.A.O. Press, 1988. - 303 p., page 140 - 142 :




An article by the same autors online ...

Harris & Hussien : The Identification of the Eighteenth Dynasty Royal Mummies - A Biological Perspective. - In: IJOA - 1. - 1991. - pp. 235 - 239.

Also of interest in this connection ...

Braunstein / White / Russell / Harris : Paleoradiologic evaluation of the Egyptian royal mummies. - In: Skeletal Radiology - 17-5. - 1988. - pp. 348 - 352.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been distracted away from my Egyptian Dreaming for yonks, but I see you guys are still going strong (and busy).

Have you guys solved the Mystery?

Okay! Okay! When I get time, I'm going to have to go back though all the posts you've made here since I wandered off...


(Though it would be easier and less time consuming if you guys just told me if you've solved the Mystery, mind).
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, you aven't been working as hard as I thought. I've read all the posts since I was last here - and also many before I left so as to reacquaint myself!

That Harris document sugggestsd the KV55 Mummy was older than 35!

Mystery solved? Idea

I mean - how old was Akhenaten when he died? At leasty 35? Idea
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