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Hatchepsut Obese?
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EgyptianRose
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:54 am    Post subject: Hatchepsut Obese? Reply with quote

Simple asked, Is it true that the mummy of Hatchepsut indicates she was obese and suffering from cancer?
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It is of course the hieght of irony that, after this intensive campaign to expunge them from the annals of Egypt, the Amarna pharaohs are today probably the most recognized of all the country's ancient rulers!

Quote 'Amarna Sunset' by Aidan Dodson.
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that's what the medical reports and ct scans said.
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EgyptianRose
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this accurate?
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It is of course the hieght of irony that, after this intensive campaign to expunge them from the annals of Egypt, the Amarna pharaohs are today probably the most recognized of all the country's ancient rulers!

Quote 'Amarna Sunset' by Aidan Dodson.
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

what reason do you have to doubt it?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maat-ka-Ra Hatshepsut ---> Hatshepsut ---> Mummy

Lutz
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EgyptianRose
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
what reason do you have to doubt it?


None, I was just interested... Question
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It is of course the hieght of irony that, after this intensive campaign to expunge them from the annals of Egypt, the Amarna pharaohs are today probably the most recognized of all the country's ancient rulers!

Quote 'Amarna Sunset' by Aidan Dodson.
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EgyptianRose
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Maat-ka-Ra Hatshepsut ---> Hatshepsut ---> Mummy

Lutz


Oh and Thankyou Lutz.
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It is of course the hieght of irony that, after this intensive campaign to expunge them from the annals of Egypt, the Amarna pharaohs are today probably the most recognized of all the country's ancient rulers!

Quote 'Amarna Sunset' by Aidan Dodson.
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Naunacht
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:38 am    Post subject: Re: Hatchepsut Obese? Reply with quote

EgyptianRose wrote:
Simple asked, Is it true that the mummy of Hatchepsut indicates she was obese and suffering from cancer?


The lady had a whole host of health problems in addition to cancer. Some of her ailments, particularly her seriously absessed teeth, indicate possible diabetes to top it off she also had back problems--a herniated disk, I believe.

I'd still put a question mark on the identity of this mummy. Zahi Hawass rushed to the Discovery Channel with this identification and the results of the investigation were never scientifically published. From what we know it's certainly possible, even likely. The tooth fits, the woman's age fits (she would have been in her mid-twenties at the time of the death of Thutmose II), the provenance makes sense, the royal pose fits (although I do wonder why she was buried in the pose of a queen not a king--was this Thutmose III's idea or hers?), the idea that Hatshepsut was having serious long term health issues fits what we know of the period of the end of the reign.

All of these things can be argued of course but I don't know of any known facts that absolutely disqualify this mummy as the mortal remains of the great queen. If anyone does, I'd really like to hear it.

What doesn't fit this mummy is the image most of us have of Hatshepsut as a beautiful, slender, even athletic young woman. Of course there's no reason why she couldn't have been quite attractive as a young woman and well-just didn't age well. Egyptian art as we all know was idealizing and I doubt any of her officials were about to write that her majesty needed to lay off the beer and honey cakes.
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EgyptianRose
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naunacht
Quote:
the idea that Hatshepsut was having serious long term health issues fits what we know of the period of the end of the reign.



How so? Idea
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It is of course the hieght of irony that, after this intensive campaign to expunge them from the annals of Egypt, the Amarna pharaohs are today probably the most recognized of all the country's ancient rulers!

Quote 'Amarna Sunset' by Aidan Dodson.
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Naunacht
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EgyptianRose wrote:
Naunacht
Quote:
the idea that Hatshepsut was having serious long term health issues fits what we know of the period of the end of the reign.



How so? Idea


The end of Hatshepsut's reign has always been something of a mystery leading to lots of speculation. Barbara Mertz, for example, suggested in her Red Land Black Land that Thutmose III managed to stage a coup--problem is there's no real evidence for that aside from his story of his selection as king by an oracle of Amon which dates to late in his reign at the time that he was beginning to remove any evidence of Hatshepsut's reign.

The only real evidence is that by late in his year 22 Thutmose III was on the march against a conspiracy of Asiatic "rebels" who were massing at Megiddo under the leadership of the Prince of Kadesh. It seems to me, and this is speculation of course, that the rulers who were involved in the rebellion had to believe that Egypt was going to be vulnerable fairly soon. It also seems that these sort of rebellions would take time to build. The prince of Kadesh did not have a Twitter account. He would have had to build his coalition the old fashioned way--ambassadors and personal appeals backed up by promises of wealth beyond imagination--that takes time. If she just up and died it seems hard to imagine how all thse foreign princes got together in time to pull off their rebellion.

Strangely, Hatshepsut's actual presence on the throne doesn't seem to have set off any rebellions among Egypt's vassal states in Canaan or power grabs by say the Mittani or remnants of the Hyksos or whoever else might have been out there, until very late in her reign. The old gal was apparently holding down the fort quite well for more than twenty years. However, if it became known among the citiy states of Asia that Hatshepsut was sick and clearly probably close to the end of her life, the prince of Kadesh would have had both the time and the incentive to build his coalition.

In doing so they of course completely underestimated Thutmose III but let's face it, what would any macho bronze age ruler have thought of a young king who'd knuckled under to his stepmother-aunt for more than twenty years.

Happily for Egypt, misunderestimating Thutmose III (to use a word coined by the worst military strategist of my generation, one George W. Bush) turned out to be a really big mistake on the part of the ruler of Kadesh and his allies.

That's my argument--such as it is. It does seem to me that that KV60 mummy and her obvious health issues can fit the historical situation quite nicely. I'm not saying it's definately her but I do think it's not too far out there in speculationland.
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Ankhetmaatre
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Naunacht,

That makes sense, though, of course, there is no evidence for any of this. It does lead me to wonder if Hatshepsut's curious male affectations (in official painting and sculpture) were an attempt to keep the rulers of various foreign nations from realizing that a female was ruling Egypt. It seems that the Egyptians themselves were somewhat more egalitarian than the rest of the ancient middle east - that or their respect for the descendant of Ahmose-Nefertari was such that they were willing to bend the rules for her. But it is curious that other nations did not attempt to usurp some of her foreign holdings, diplomacy not withstanding.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hatshepsut's shift from Queen regent to Pharaonic co-regent took place with the full support and approval of the male elite. Ministers who had served her father and brother/husband continued their careers under Makare Hatshepsut without a hiccup. The younger among them continued to serve Menkheperure Thutmose. NOBODY including Thutmose III seems to have had the slightest problem with the situation until long after Hatshepsut's death when it was decided to rewrite history in a more conventional form.

The reasons for Hatshepsut's change of style and for her subsequent removal from the King lists may never been understood but it is quite clear that the old model of 'usurping queen and resentful rightful king' is incorrect.
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Ankhetmaatre
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I gather that is the current take on the situation, Meretseger. There didn't seem to be much, if any, mummers against her within Egypt during her tenure. What I'm wondering is if her statuary, ect. wasn't, perhaps, an attempt to disguise the fact that she was female to foreign interests who may have felt that a female ruler would be weaker than a male one. Pure speculation, of course.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well she certainly wasn't deceiving ministers of state who'd known her since she was a child Wink and the common folk were probably pretty clear that Thutmose II's former spouse was a female as well!

Hatshepsut's predecessor Queen-Pharaoh Sobekneferu also succeeded without opposition but also found it necessary to adopt male regalia which she attempted to combine with her female dress and shape. Hat took the matter a step further re: statuary but seems to have made no pretense in her inscriptions which use female cases. Maybe she was trying to fool somebody or maybe she was just doing her best to fit into the masculine monarchical mode.
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Ankhetmaatre
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well she certainly wasn't deceiving ministers of state who'd known her since she was a child and the common folk were probably pretty clear that Thutmose II's former spouse was a female as well!


True! Even more so because she'd had a child. Very Happy

I didn't know that Sobekneferu also adopted male regalia. That's very interesting.

Is there any evidence of any sort of military action during Hatshepsut's reign? I don't recall any, and if there were none it begs the question how necessary were all those forays into Nubia and Asia that almost every other Pharaoh seemed to boast of? I wonder what percentage of those "mighty battles" were simply state propaganda. Hatshepsut seemed to be able to manage well enough with diplomacy and trade...
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