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Nefertiti
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khazarkhum
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhetmaatre wrote:


Generally I would agree but in this instance it is no more fallacious to intimate that the find at Thutmose's studio is singular and special (because it is) than it is to say that the Nefertiti bust is unique and special (because it is). What you are basically saying is that in a unique find one of the unique pieces must be fake because it is so unique...

Also, I am aware of what sort of processes go into analyzing ancient techniques in painting and sculpture as well as textile art as I have more than one graduate degree in art, art history and conservation. While it's not uncommon for art historians and conservators to "utilizing ancient materials and methods to recreate the past and further enhance our knowledge of ancient techniques" we almost NEVER get it as exact as you claim Borchardt has. And certainly not on the first go or without advanced scientific analysis.

This argument no longer makes sense. Empirical evidence supports the bust being authentic. The bulk of the circumstantial evidence supports the bust being authentic. Unless new evidence comes to light Occam's Razor applies; it is more likely, all things being equal, that the bust is authentic than that Borchardt manufactured the object using a mix of ancient plaster/stucco, the chemical content of which he would have no way of knowing, using ancient pigments, again the chemical content of which he would have no way of knowing, in order to create a necklace stand that future generations would not be able to tell was a fake even after chemical testing and CT scanning.


Please understand this: I am not cowed by 'credentialism', yours or anyone else's.

Nowhere was it said that Nefertiti was Borchardt's first try. There are quite a few odd plaster pieces from "Thutmose's workshop", any number of which could also be experimental in nature. If we were looking for some of these, the so-called 'life masks' would be a good place to start. They aren't life masks, as I'm sure you're aware, and I'm equally sure you can explain why they aren't.

I am less sure about your contempt for the work done by Borchardt. Determining the makeup of casein-based paints and pigments was well understood in 1912. Finding a collection of pigments merely helped with the experiments. The same is true for locally-sourced plaster. Using what the locals used is the time-honored method for recreating specific effects.

However, since you find it incredible that Borchardt could possibly have created Nefertiti, perhaps you could also explain why he didn't create this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ancientartpodcast/7032667049/

Rolf Krauss dismembered this as a fake. This is, by the way, the piece Borchardt gave to Cairo in exchange for Nefertiti. Krauss' article appeared in the Summer 2009 KMT.

Quote:
What you are basically saying is that in a unique find one of the unique pieces must be fake because it is so unique...


When you find something unique, in a unique setting, in unique condition, it is imperative that you fully and thoroughly document the find. There was at least one camera on-site; why are there no photos of the bust in situ? Why no photos of the interior of Thutmose's workshop? Why are there so few photos of what had to be a momentous find?

To put it succinctly: the more unique the find, the more rigorous the proofs.

Finally, why did you refer to it as a necklace stand?
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me get this straight; Borchardt created a fake stela in order to get his fake Nefertiti out of the country? That seems a little... odd.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Please understand this: I am not cowed by 'credentialism', yours or anyone else's.


lol - I am not attempting to "cow" you through "credintialism", as you put it - mostly because I haven't actually offered you any. Many people have graduate degrees (and many of them are out of work but that's another issue). It was more in the way of saying that I have a very reasonable working knowledge of the process you described of attempting to understand or recreate ancient methods for the purpose of conservation.

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Nowhere was it said that Nefertiti was Borchardt's first try. There are quite a few odd plaster pieces from "Thutmose's workshop", any number of which could also be experimental in nature. If we were looking for some of these, the so-called 'life masks' would be a good place to start. They aren't life masks, as I'm sure you're aware, and I'm equally sure you can explain why they aren't.


Not sure what you're getting at there unless you are implying that the plasters (which upthread you said we shouldn't bring into this discussion for some reason) are fakes too?

Quote:
I am less sure about your contempt for the work done by Borchardt. Determining the makeup of casein-based paints and pigments was well understood in 1912. Finding a collection of pigments merely helped with the experiments. The same is true for locally-sourced plaster. Using what the locals used is the time-honored method for recreating specific effects.


That is inaccurate - there are very definite chemical processes that are specific to ancient Egyptian pigments - namely the blue, which is not "casein" in the common manner of milk/egg tempera - that Borchardt really could not have known about. I posted two references about these processes upthread.

So, is the Krauss article the only reference you have supporting your assertion that the bust of Nefertit is fake? Because it would be good to find a more direct source then secondhand hearsay. Krauss, while he is a good egyptologist, I'm sure, has made some very dubious and unsupported claims in the past. He claimed that Tutankhamun's tomb was not robbed in antiquity after all but that Howard Carter did it himself. And he claims to have discovered some rather woo Egyptian astrological equivalences, among other things...


Quote:
Finally, why did you refer to it as a necklace stand?


I refer to it as a necklace stand because that is what Henri Stierlin claimed it was. In his book, Le buste de Néfertiti : Une imposture de l'égyptologie?, Stierlin claims Borchardt commissioned the sculptor Gerhard Marcks to make the bust in order to display a necklace he (Borchadt) had discovered at Amarna. So you see, it wasn't even supposed to have been Borchardt who did the counterfeiting in any way, either sculpting or painting. I'm beginning to wonder if you have read any of the material written by the people whose assertions you support, which begs the question, what exactly ARE your sources for any of this?
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khazarkhum
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
Let me get this straight; Borchardt created a fake stela in order to get his fake Nefertiti out of the country? That seems a little... odd.


Krauss made the claim. The stela in question is very odd, indeed. Between the jumbled iconography and the bizarre princess, it's another piece that needs an extremely long look, at the very least.

What people often have trouble understanding is that a sizable percentage of what is on display in every single museum is not what it seems to be. Fakes range from innocent pieces like incorrectly attributed student works or student copies to deliberate forgeries.

This is why it is imperative to thoroughly document every single find at a site.
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khazarkhum
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhetmaatre wrote:


Not sure what you're getting at there unless you are implying that the plasters (which upthread you said we shouldn't bring into this discussion for some reason) are fakes too?


I would rather not drag the entirety of the excavation into this, true. However, since you made a point of explaining your expertise on the matter, it was a chance to explain how those masks were made. I know. Do you?

Quote:

That is inaccurate - there are very definite chemical processes that are specific to ancient Egyptian pigments - namely the blue, which is not "casein" in the common manner of milk/egg tempera - that Borchardt really could not have known about. I posted two references about these processes upthread.


I see you missed the part where it was explained that they found pigments at the site.

Quote:
So, is the Krauss article the only reference you have supporting your assertion that the bust of Nefertit is fake? Because it would be good to find a more direct source then secondhand hearsay. Krauss, while he is a good egyptologist, I'm sure, has made some very dubious and unsupported claims in the past. He claimed that Tutankhamun's tomb was not robbed in antiquity after all but that Howard Carter did it himself. And he claims to have discovered some rather woo Egyptian astrological equivalences, among other things...


Two things: No, Krauss is not the main source for my assertion about Nefertiti; and Two, if an article in a publication is considered by you to be 'hearsay' and 'secondhand', then there's no point in discussing references, now, is there?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

borchardt admitted to changing the appearance of the bust so the egyptian officials would not pick it......like covering it in mud or something.

but he would have never have announced it was a fake. what would be the point?
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Ankhetmaatre
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So judging by the lack of sources you're offering can we infer that you have none that are not actually secondhand hearsay?

Quote:
Two things: No, Krauss is not the main source for my assertion about Nefertiti; and Two, if an article in a publication is considered by you to be 'hearsay' and 'secondhand', then there's no point in discussing references, now, is there?


1) It's exactly what you are doing by claiming that everything that does not support your own position is a fake - or did you not notice? 2) Are you aware of the difference between primary and secondary sources and hearsay? It's one of the things you learn when you do the work to acquire those trifling credentials you feel so cowed by 3)What are these other sources? Please share them.

Quote:
However, since you made a point of explaining your expertise on the matter, it was a chance to explain how those masks were made. I know. Do you?


By all means, do tell. This should be good.

Quote:
I see you missed the part where it was explained that they found pigments at the site.


Wait, what??!! LMAO! Ok, - let me get this straight... you are buying that bit about Borchardt FINDING ready made and USABLE pigments in situ and that he quickly plastered and painted up the bust - oh, yeah, and the stela right on the spot... that is beyond laughable. If he found actual ancient pigments they would not be usable (which you would know if you have bothered to read the paper referenced on the process of creating egyptian blue). And if he was, somehow, able to make something of these alleged pigments he would have had to add modern ingredients to reactivate them, to say the very least.

BTW, do you even know where that idea came from? It was built out of an unsubstantiated claim made by Henri Stierlin. Here, let me quote it to you, "Everyone knows that Borchardt possessed large quantities of pigment.” <---THIS is the very definition of a wild, unsupported claim. If this is the sort of thing you are building your argument upon it's no wonder you have to ride the circular logic merry-go-round to support your case - you have none.

I believe this is the fourth time I have asked for a reference or a citation from you. And the Krauss paper is legitimate, if laughable, in that it is at least a published article. I think it's time we saw the others you spoke of because you are making a very serious accusation of malignant dishonesty on the part of not only Borchardt - because it's very easy to malign the dead, I suppose, since they cannot defend themselves - but also a number modern scientists and historians as well. If you cannot do this then nothing has been proven except that Lutz was correct.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must admit I don't see anything odd about the stela - at least nothing odder than other Amarna stela.
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khazarkhum
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
borchardt admitted to changing the appearance of the bust so the egyptian officials would not pick it......like covering it in mud or something.

but he would have never have announced it was a fake. what would be the point?


Over the years Borchardt told a variety of stories, including one alluded to upthread, that it was actually a necklace stand made to display jewelry from a tomb. What the tomb was and where the jewelry went seems to be a mystery.
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khazarkhum
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
So judging by the lack of sources you're offering can we infer that you have none that are not actually secondhand hearsay?


I've offered you a simple article in KNT, which shouldn't be too hard for someone of your stature to check. Again, if a magazine article isn't a reference, you need to inform th MLA because they certainly consider them as such. You might also explain, at the same time, why a published article is "second-hand" and "hearsay". I'm sure they would find your reasoning absolutely compelling.

Quote:

1) It's exactly what you are doing by claiming that everything that does not support your own position is a fake - or did you not notice? 2) Are you aware of the difference between primary and secondary sources and hearsay? It's one of the things you learn when you do the work to acquire those trifling credentials you feel so cowed by 3)What are these other sources? Please share them.


I am not the one claiming that everything that doesn't support my position is a fake. That's you & Lutz.

Secondly, I am quite aware of the differences between primary and secondary sources. I am also well aware of how they must be used. You will note that I find the CT scan interesting in that it indicates what was suspected when the bust was unveiled in 1923--there is indeed a stone core beneath the plaster.

I see you missed the part where it was explained that they found pigments at the site.


Quote:
Wait, what??!! LMAO! Ok, - let me get this straight... you are buying that bit about Borchardt FINDING ready made and USABLE pigments in situ and that he quickly plastered and painted up the bust - oh, yeah, and the stela right on the spot... that is beyond laughable. If he found actual ancient pigments they would not be usable (which you would know if you have bothered to read the paper referenced on the process of creating egyptian blue). And if he was, somehow, able to make something of these alleged pigments he would have had to add modern ingredients to reactivate them, to say the very least.


The discovery of the pigments is one of the least controversial parts of the excavation. Reactivating ground pigments that are intended for use but have never been used is not a particularly taxing process. People have been doing it for a very long time.

Quote:



I believe this is the fourth time I have asked for a reference or a citation from you. And the Krauss paper is legitimate, if laughable, in that it is at least a published article.


When you dismiss a published piece as 'laughable' you lose all credibility as a critic. Especially when you have offered no response to said piece.

Quote:

I think it's time we saw the others you spoke of because you are making a very serious accusation of malignant dishonesty on the part of not only Borchardt - because it's very easy to malign the dead, I suppose, since they cannot defend themselves - but also a number modern scientists and historians as well. If you cannot do this then nothing has been proven except that Lutz was correct.


Attacking the messenger is the craven way.

Once again you have shown your inability to produce any Ancient Egyptian busts with vertically-cut shoulders. Instead of concentrating on that, you've chosen the low road by attacking me. Instead of finding any Ancient Egyptian sculpture that was buried and still has intact paint, you try to insult me.

As I've said before, it's much easier to attack me than do real research.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khazarkhum wrote:
Once again you have shown your inability to produce any Ancient Egyptian busts with vertically-cut shoulders.


a picture of a bust of tutankhamun was posted up thread.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I still said, believers and conspiracy theorists can not really impressed of scientific findings or even common sense. Nevertheless, once again, for the rational reader:

It goes against every law of probability that Borchardt several times could randomly accurately reproduce the percentage mixing ratio of each component of Amarna stucco and colors. Moreover, he can not even have the informations about that. These are findings and results of modern chemical analysis of our time. He may not have been aware that the stucco used in Amarna was unique in its composition and in the mixing ratio of components in ancient Egypt. To explain this just refering to the use of local raw materials and antique pigments is simply absurd. Not to speak of it that he would probably have found kilos of color pigments (which definitely was not the case, I saw them in the magazine in Berlin) to be able to produce the number of here now as fake defamed objects ... Not to mention the simple impossibility of confidentiality of such an action on site at all.

And at this point maybe some background information for a better understanding of this thread:

Rolf Krauss was an employee at the Egyptian Museum in Berlin. As Prof. Dietrich Wildung he had applied for the post of Director. Wildung obtained the post, Krauss turned out to be a sore loser. He reached his new chief of public and imputed criminal activity in connection with the coffin bottom of KV 55. Since he could not provide conclusive evidence for that, the "Stiftung Preussischer Kulturbesitz" considered it necessary to dissolve the employment relationship with Krauss. He has not complained against this dismissal, confirming the inconsistency of his statements (in my view).
After that he starts to see the fakes by Borchardt ... The reader may think its part.

Ms. Dawn Martinez-Byrne (khazarkhum) is remotely controlled more or less and feded by the protagonists of an forum that has been named after the ancient Egyptian god of writing. Aptly the name "We-all-here-hate-Dietrich-Wildung-Forum" would be better. With dependable regularity Wildung is latest in every 2nd post from the protagonists there (no matter what subject they are write about) attacked, insulted and slandered. No wonder, with his expertiese about the so called Mansour - Collection he had some dealers / owners of fakes the buisness / financial messed ... At known, when money comes to play the fun stops.

Besides, they follow there very closely this discussions here and they are worried and puzzle about the here writing members. Incidentally, me was there a doctoral degree awarded. I take it as compliment ... Others here come off not so well.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Ankhetmaatre
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz said:
Quote:
Ms. Dawn Martinez-Byrne (khazarkhum) is remotely controlled more or less and feded by the protagonists of an forum that has been named after the ancient Egyptian god of writing


I was beginning to suspect something of this manner. The way the argument always shifts and the generally superficial grasp of the entire subject and the disjointed facts all point to someone who is being given info piecemeal from various (and also poor) sources.

Also, for the record, although KMT is a great read, it is a popular journal and the articles it features do not undergo a strict peer review. It is not unusual for the findings of an article to be contested (case in point; the articles KMT published dealing with the controversy of the age of the Sphinx. Many POV were represented: http://www.davidpbillington.net/sphinx4.html) One article, which is indeed a secondary source and built largely upon hearsay, does not constitute a body of evidence by ANY reckoning. The fact that she doesn't seem to grasp that speaks loudly of her general understanding of the nature of empirical evidence and how to conduct research in general. Khazarkhum has been offered references from articles that ARE from peer reviewed journals but is apparently uninterested in exploring them.

For the record, the bust has not been proven fake after rigorous testing and that is the best that we can expect from any ancient object. Unless new evidence of an empirical nature (by that meaning primary) can be brought to bear on the argument there isn't much left to say. The unsubstantiated hearsay of two embittered old men does not really constitute evidence but is considered by the scientific community to be hearsay*.

*Hearsay is information gathered by one person from another person concerning some event, condition, or thing of which the first person had no direct experience. When submitted as evidence, such statements are called hearsay evidence.
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Ankhetmaatre
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz said:
Quote:
Others here come off not so well.


I have no doubt of that. I also doubt anyone here cares about these poeple's opinion of them Laughing

(it's always safer to bash someone where they can't see you. who was it who was talking about cowardice? huum, trying to remember...)
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
... I also doubt anyone here cares about these poeple's opinion of them Laughing ...

There is in German a very appropriate saying: "Was kümmert es die Eiche, wenn die Sau sich an ihr reibt ?" (What does it matter the oak when the sow rubs herself on her?). Cool

Greetings, Lutz.
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