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Nefertiti
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Ankhetmaatre
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will write that one down, Lutz. XD
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Ankhetmaatre
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW, here's a sampling of where a lot of this so called evidence is coming from (read the comments, it gets better the more you scroll); http://blogs.mercurynews.com/aei/2009/05/05/is-famed-nefertiti-bust-a-fake/

It reads like a soap opra, complete with advertisements. I wonder why he didn't post links to the scientific papers proving the authenticity of his own collection...
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for this, Ankhetmaatre, very funny (although this never-ending Mansoor-Monologues on the duration already somewhat fatigued...). Laughing

What a pretty and simple view of the world: all with doubts about the authenticity of the so-called Mansoor collection are devils (with upper devil Wildung at the top) and they to consider it real (and usually no pig knows) are honorable respectable humans. As I said, when it goes about money the fun stops.

But back to Amarna and Nefertiti. Here is a link to a German page about the picture collection of Prinz Johann Georg von Sachsen. He and his wife were in Amarna at the time the bust was found and he made the first pictures of the bust. The page is worth it to use the translation machine, I think:

Fotonachlass des Prinzen Johann Georg von Sachsen - ein Juwel im Uni-Archiv

Hope they will make the foto archive accessable for the public.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Ankhetmaatre
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now THAT is a fantastic shot. Good find! My hat's off to you!
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Ankhetmaatre
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love how the fellahin evacuator is holding her properly and with such care not to put his palms upon her head.

What a wonderful pic! You've made my day!!
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The link comes from the EEF News (737), 20.09.2012 and was posted by Michael Tilgner.

But Borchardt must have someone in his team who did also photos. There are some in his prelimanary reports from the side.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Ankhetmaatre
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol, I meant to say fellahin excavator.

:hate for autocorrect:

Still loving that pic though. You can see that there is soil still clinging to her right side. And it looks pretty fine grained which would mean it would have been fairly soft.

The claim that an object being buried in the sand of Egypt would neccissarily scour the surface is inaccurate, btw, many objects are largely preserved that way, as long as they aren't caught up in the debris from violent flash floods. The preservative qualities of Egyptian sand are what gave the ancient people the idea to preserve the dead and other objects in the first place. Many of the bodies of the pre-dynastic dead as well as the famous painted floors of the Malkata palace attest to this.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khazarkhum wrote:
Ankhetmaatre wrote:
There is a bust of Tutankhamen in the Neues Museum, a full picture of which is in Tyldesley book, Tutankhamen; The Search For An Egyptian King (color plate 13), which has vertical shoulders http://www.flickr.com/photos/menesje/1937454145/in/set-72157603861500944 - as well as this this figurine; http://www.flickr.com/photos/menesje/5902114013/in/set-72157603861500944/

... If you look at the bust of the young man (he's been described as Smenkhare, Tutankhamun, and even Akhenaten) you can clearly see that the shoulder facing the camera was originally intended to round down to the horizontal plane. It is, however, broken, as is the other shoulder. ...

6 hours ago I was standing direct in front of "Bust of King Tutankhamun" (ÄMP 20496) in "Neues Museum Berlin". And I can say with 100 percent certainty, this claim is false. In the front area of the right shoulder of the bust one sees clearly the rest of the vertical shoulder completion. This vertical area, the same form as on the bust of Nefertiti, is damaged to the back. There is nothing to see that someone "intended to round" them.

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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Bust of King Tutankhamun" - Berlin, ÄMP 20496 :



(Copyright Lutz, 24.09.2012)
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khazarkhum
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
"Bust of King Tutankhamun" - Berlin, ÄMP 20496 :



(Copyright Lutz, 24.09.2012)


You need your eyes checked. that shoulder is broken.
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khazarkhum
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few comments.

I do not believe in Internet Detective Games. As a woman who frequents quite a few different types of sites, I have found that a gender-neutral handle is likelier to be taken seriously than a female one. Lutz is doing a dandy job of proving that for me, first by accusing me of being into space conspiracies, and then by accusing me of being "controlled" by others.

I am perfectly capable of making up my own mind. I do not need other "experts" or colleagues to tell me what to think. I can't help but notice you waited until I was away before launching various attacks on me. How very typical.

This is what Wildung, the current head of the Berlin Museum, wrote about the bust in Spt 9 1983. It's in French.

"Analyse historico/stylistique: une perfection glacee, un rendu dans vie, aucun style propre a l'epoque n'est perceptible: une oeuvre d'art fabriquee". J'ajoute que ce dernier terme, tel que je le traduis ici, tente de restituter l'expression allemande <<aus der Retorte>>, qui qualifie litteralement une oeuvre "alambiquee", "une synthese de divers elements sans relation organique entre eux."

It's odd that Wildung would dismiss the bust before he became museum director, only to embrace it once he got that job.

But again, you're running from the tougher test. You have yet to produce anything from the NK that is undoubtedly from the ground (in-situ photos would be ideal) that has anywhere near the kind of pristine paint seen on Nefertiti.

For the record, I went into researching this assuming the bust was an actual ancient artifact. The more I looked, the more I saw, and I no longer think it is anything but a pastiche.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khazarkhum wrote:
You need your eyes checked. that shoulder is broken.

I do not think you're the best person to judge my eyesight. I stood in front of the bust, several times. The last time on 24.09.2012. And I also think the picture clearly shows the front vertical surface which is terminated to the rear. How often have you seen the bust (when and where)?

Lutz
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khazarkhum wrote:
A few comments.

I do not believe in Internet Detective Games. As a woman who frequents quite a few different types of sites, I have found that a gender-neutral handle is likelier to be taken seriously than a female one. ...

That this is at least here in this forum pure utter nonsense, showing presence and contributions of Neseret, Anneke, Meretseger, Ankhetmaatre, and so on, and so on ... From my perspective, you try to put yourself into an victimhood that you not deserve entirely. Just ridiculous but also pathetic.

khazarkhum wrote:
... Lutz is doing a dandy job of proving that for me, first by accusing me of being into space conspiracies, and then by accusing me of being "controlled" by others. ...

Your behavior and your reaction to real facts, that fit unfortunately not in your pretty little picture, for me is the profile of a typical conspiracy theorist. My personal impression as a result of several meetings of this kind. The impression of the remote control is created by the posts on that other strange forum, and is also just a very personal view by me.

khazarkhum wrote:
... I am perfectly capable of making up my own mind. I do not need other "experts" or colleagues to tell me what to think. ...

Well, as I said, for me this sounds and looks different. My impression, for which I stand.

khazarkhum wrote:
... I can't help but notice you waited until I was away before launching various attacks on me. How very typical. ...

What now is again totaly nonsense. I can hardly imagine titillate when you deign us here with a post. This reminds me of nothing more really. Totally paranoid.

khazarkhum wrote:
... This is what Wildung, the current head of the Berlin Museum, wrote about the bust in Spt 9 1983. It's in French.

"Analyse historico/stylistique: une perfection glacee, un rendu dans vie, aucun style propre a l'epoque n'est perceptible: une oeuvre d'art fabriquee". J'ajoute que ce dernier terme, tel que je le traduis ici, tente de restituter l'expression allemande <<aus der Retorte>>, qui qualifie litteralement une oeuvre "alambiquee", "une synthese de divers elements sans relation organique entre eux."

It's odd that Wildung would dismiss the bust before he became museum director, only to embrace it once he got that job. ...

The "current head" is for around a year now a women, Prof. Dr. Friederike Seyfried. Not really importent, but by the way, it shows me one more time your level of knowledge when it comes to basics.

Nonsense. Wildung describes his personal feelings and the feel about what the bust symbolizes in the present. He is not given an expertise. He has this once very nice told and explained during a lecture here in Berlin. In the first years as director of the museum in the western part of the city, it really took some time until he was able to build a relationship with the piece, privately for himself. This was, however, at no time because he suspected about a fake. It was, according to his own words, a feeling that was determined by the modern reception of the piece and its commercial exploitation.

khazarkhum wrote:
...The more I looked, the more I saw, and I no longer think it is anything but a pastiche.

Well, maybe then with your eyes something's wrong ...

Lutz
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khazarkhum wrote:
But again, you're running from the tougher test. You have yet to produce anything from the NK that is undoubtedly from the ground (in-situ photos would be ideal) that has anywhere near the kind of pristine paint seen on Nefertiti.


the fresco of the 2 princesses. amarna period, unearthed, and in excellent condition.

if your going to challenge the paintwork preservation of the bust, you must remember it was left in a workshop, with walls and a roof. over time, the roof collapsed and the building like any other in amarna filled with sand. the only way sand could be corrosive to the colours of the bust is if it were constantly moving, like wind against a rock. since the building simply filled with sand, the sand cannot move over the bust, it just becomes buried.

so i don't see the reason for calling it fake being because the colour is intact. the colour is intact on a lot of buildings and tombs, the ones that it does not last are the ones standing in the open.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
khazarkhum wrote:
But again, you're running from the tougher test. You have yet to produce anything from the NK that is undoubtedly from the ground (in-situ photos would be ideal) that has anywhere near the kind of pristine paint seen on Nefertiti.


the fresco of the 2 princesses. amarna period, unearthed, and in excellent condition. ...

Various floor paintings and frescoes from Amarna in various museums (Cairo, Berlin, Paris, and others). Similarly, the wall, ceiling and floor paintings in Malqata (Thebes - West, Amenhotep III). Some still preserved in situ and relatively well, considering that they for a few decades now are really exposed the rigors of the Egyptian weathering directly.

Lutz
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