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Nefertiti
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Ankhetmaatre
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it a bit ironic that Kharzarkhum demands the rigors of direct evidence; photos, scholarly documentation, in situ examples - while offering none herself as well as completely ignoring photos, scholarly documentation and in situ examples. @_@

As an aside, ancient Egyptian wall paintings are not frescos in the manner of, say a renaissance fresco. That term is a misnomer. They were painted in the exact same manner as the bust of Nefertiti, pigment on plaster, using a binding substance, either casin or resonous oil, sometimes slightly damp(in the case of Tutankhamen's hurried tomb paintings) but usually on dry plaster. This method is called a secco (on dry). This method of painting is more delicate than that of fresco painting. The argument that wall paintings could better withstand the test of time because of the method of manufacture is fallicious.

Also, the light grained mud sand mix that skirts the outer edge of the Nile flood plain tends to be highly preservative.




Weatherhead, Fran; Wall Paintings From the King's House At Amarna, The Journal of Egyptian Archeology, vol 81, (1995), pp. 95-113

The Ancient Egyptian Collection at the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston. Part 2, a Review of Former Treatments at the MFA and Their Consequences
Susanne Gänsicke, Pamela Hatchfield, Abigail Hykin, Marie Svoboda, C. Mei-An Tsu
Journal of the American Institute for Conservation, Vol.. 42, No. 2, Objects
Issue (Summer, 2003), pp. 193-236

Ugo Procacci, Frescoes from Florence, pp. 15-25 1969, Arts Council, London.

The Amarna Project:
http://www.amarnaproject.com/pages/amarna_the_place/history_and_nature/index.shtml
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khazarkhum
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If they had that camera on site the day the bust was found, why aren't there any photos of it in situ?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How would it be if you would itself first answering a couple of questions which were put to you into some of the last contributions of individual members, before you the "morons" here at "Egyptian-Dreams" bring to laugh with new ones by you?

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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

just because thereare none published, does not mean photos were not taken on the dig. there is a difference between never taking photos and unpublished ones.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
just because thereare none published, does not mean photos were not taken on the dig. there is a difference between never taking photos and unpublished ones.

As I said, at the excavations of Borchardt in Amarna at least temporarily a photographer must have been. There are pictures of the excavations in the reports published in the "Mitteilungen der Deutschen Orientgesellschaft". They should be to find in the Borchardt - Archive in Cairo, in the care of the "Schweizerisches Institut für Ägyptische Bauforschung und Altertumskunde". These documents are in the progress of sighting, but available for research (after registration).

The photograph, however, was at this time still far away to be a standard tool of archeology. Their use seems to be the exception. The first photos of the bust were taken by a private visitor of the excavation. He was not a member of the team. It was a German nobleman (Prinz Johann Georg von Sachsen) who was with his wife on a trip to the Orient, and was a couple of days visiting the German excavation at Amarna. The Prince was an enthusiastic amateur photographer and made purely coincidental the first pictures of the bust.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Ankhetmaatre
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It might be useful to take a moment and look back at the evolution of Egyptology. Around the turn of the 19th century most people doing archeology in Egypt were looking for evidence to support the historicity of the Christian bible, or to aquire antiquitiies for private collectors.

When archeologists like Karl Lepsius, Flinders Petrie and Ludwig Borchardt began working in Egypt there was almost no notion of what we, today, would consider best practices in excavating. There was little thought of context or in situ documentation until these people began to make real progress at opening up the field by using what we now consider de rigor techniques (a grid for excavation, in situ documentation and so on). These were new concepts and the process evolved as it went. They were pioneers of their times. It wasn't until Howard Carter discovered the tomb of Tutankhamen in 1922 that photography was actually employed to its fullest as a tool for recording and documenting. Before that time hand typed or written notes and paintings where the norm. Many of these notes and paintings have been lost or neglected over the years. For instance, there is a wonderful folio of original paintings of the Amarna tomb scenes done by Howard Carter as a young man working for Flinders Petrie that was never even published. I think it may even still be kicking around somewhere in France. So it is not terribly shocking that the notes from an excavation of that time are obscure now. Many times they are tucked away in a private archive, unpublished and untranslated. Even those that are published can be hard to come by. Hopefully, with renewed interest some of these treasures of early archeology can be brought back to light. Personally, I would love to see those paintings by Carter...
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
BTW, here's a sampling of where a lot of this so called evidence is coming from (read the comments, it gets better the more you scroll); http://blogs.mercurynews.com/aei/2009/05/05/is-famed-nefertiti-bust-a-fake/

It reads like a soap opra, complete with advertisements. I wonder why he didn't post links to the scientific papers proving the authenticity of his own collection...


Too beautiful to be true is not my reaction to the Mansoor collection. I mean when even a total amateur with a glass eye like me can see the difference between these works and the genuine article!
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And no sign of a necklace either....
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Ankhetmaatre
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the Mansoor Collection appears to be without any context at all. I don't think we even know who discovered these objects or where they were found. At least I have never seen any information released about that.

In fact the Mansoor Collection, much more than the Nefertiti Bust, meets Kharzarkhum's (and many other people's) definition of fake.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Attention girls, your risk of being stigmatized as a criminal or as a devil or maybe in this special case as the devils wifes (?)...

Greetings, Lutz.
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Ankhetmaatre
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But I AM the devil, Lutz. And the devil's wife. Cool

(jk, though I bet there are some who think so)
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Ankhetmaatre
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the States we have an old saying, "He/she is the very Devil!"

It's considered a bit of a compliment. Wink
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
It might be useful to take a moment and look back at the evolution of Egyptology. Around the turn of the 19th century most people doing archeology in Egypt were looking for evidence to support the historicity of the Christian bible, or to aquire antiquitiies for private collectors.


And today we have people doing "armchair" archeology, whose knowledge seems to come only from TV documentaries, exploitative books for fools and certain types of Youtube video. I think the focus of non-serious Egyptology has moved, to an extent, from "proving" the bible, to political agendas. When I read dubious conspiracy/fantasy theories I do not take it at face value that the proponent is simply some ordinary person interested in such things, as I am myself to an extent, but I ask the question "Who benefits". When the fools and charlatans are removed from the equation in these fringe affairs, we are left with people who deliberately distort reality for political reasons and certainly take full advantage of the smoke and mirrors created by the fantacists.
Hmm, this comment is probably preaching to the converted in this forum Smile
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Edgard Mansoor
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To the respectable Moderator, and to the
Ladies and Gentlemen, members of Egyptian Dreams,

A couple of days ago I sent a message to Mr. Lutz in his personal email, however he preferred that any discussions regarding Mr. Dietrich Wildung, the Nefertiti Bust or the Mansoor Amarna Collection be posted on the Forum for all to read.

I had preferred not to post my message to Mr. Lutz on the Forum, at least for the time being, until I receive his answer to my questions in order not to cause any embarrassment to anyone.

In the meantime, I would like to ask the following question to all members interested in learning the truth about the Berlin Egyptian Museum Nefertiti bust, question that I had asked Mr. Lutz in my email to him.

My question is: Did any of you know about Wildung's "Historical/Stylistic Analyses of the Nefertiti bust" that he (Wildung) had sent Henri Stierlin together with his letter (Wildung's letter) dated September 9, 1983, that you never mentioned and have preferred not to discuss in the forum in order not to embarrass Mr. Wildung?

So that you may know what I'm talking about, following is what Dietrich Wildung said ~in writing~ about the Nefertiti bust, in French, but here translated in English:

Wildung said: the bust is : 1) an ice-cold perfection; 2) a lifeless work of art; 3) not one shred of the style ~of the period~ is perceptible in it, and 4) a fabricated work of art.

Later on, more will follow about Mr. Dietrich Wildung and about the Mansoor Amarna Collection.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I still wrote in my answer to your private message, I still answered your question here in this thread. Reading helps ... sometimes, some :

Lutz, Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:15 am wrote:
Quote:
khazarkhum wrote:

... This is what Wildung, the current head of the Berlin Museum, wrote about the bust in Spt 9 1983. It's in French.

"Analyse historico/stylistique: une perfection glacee, un rendu dans vie, aucun style propre a l'epoque n'est perceptible: une oeuvre d'art fabriquee". J'ajoute que ce dernier terme, tel que je le traduis ici, tente de restituter l'expression allemande <<aus der Retorte>>, qui qualifie litteralement une oeuvre "alambiquee", "une synthese de divers elements sans relation organique entre eux."

It's odd that Wildung would dismiss the bust before he became museum director, only to embrace it once he got that job. ...


The "current head" is for around a year now a women, Prof. Dr. Friederike Seyfried. Not really importent, but by the way, it shows me one more time your level of knowledge when it comes to basics.

Nonsense. Wildung describes his personal feelings and the feel about what the bust symbolizes in the present [for him]. He is not given an expertise. He has this once very nice told and explained during a [public] lecture here in Berlin [when he still was the director]. In the first years as director of the museum in the western part of the city, it really took some time until he was able to build a relationship with the piece, privately for himself. This was, however, at no time because he suspected about a fake. It was, according to his own words, a feeling that was determined by the modern reception of the piece and its commercial exploitation. ...

Lutz
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