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Who is this Woman?
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Who do you think this mummy is?
Queen Tiye
81%
 81%  [ 9 ]
Queen Nefertiti
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Queen Sitamun
9%
 9%  [ 1 ]
Queen Kiya
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Queen Meritaten
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Queen Ankhesenamen
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
someone else
9%
 9%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 11

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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Anneke wrote:

If they would villify the wife, don't you think they might go after the mother as well? I just don't see that argument making any sense whatsoever in making an argument for Tiye but against Nefertiti.


That doesn't make much sense. Did Hatshepsut's parents get "cursed"? Did Akhenaten's father get "cursed"? Did even Tutankhamen get "cursed" for whom his parents may have been? (He did get erased by later sources, but seems to have just been 'in the middle of things'.) There are different rules for common people and royalty. Even if the latter knows some 'bad apples' not the entire dynasty is blamed for it. Amenhotep III was Akhenaten's father. Did he get slandered even once? Where do you come up with a vilification against Tiye? Regardless who her daughter (and son!) would have been, she was A III's wife. Even when still very close to Akhenaten when he had mooved to Amarna, she doesn't seem to have suffered any form of iconoclasm whatsoever, not during or after the Amarna-age. Some people appear to be above that. Whatever her connection to Nef and Akh may have been, she was still considered to be A III's wife in the first place. Or so it does very much seem to be.


I did not say Tiye was villified. I was just pointing out that some of the arguments used "don't hold water".

Tiye was very much present at Amarna, and looking at the partial shrine found in KV55 she may very well have been buried there.

Like you said, Hatshepsuts parents weren't villified. But her close associates were.

Of course the person most closely associated to Akhenaten was Nefertiti. But I think Tiye may have been close as well. Considering the scenes from the noble's tombs and the fact that her steward had a tomb in Amarna, I don't think she just vacationed there. I think she was closely associated with the court.
So if Nef, and her daughters and Kiya were all "treated not so well" because they were associated with the heretic. Then I expect Tiye to have been treated in a similar fashion.

Again, I am NOT arguing that this means Tiye was villified. I was just looking at where certain assumptions would logically lead you.
It was more of an exercise in following a trail, and by coming up with conclusions that don't fit you can cast doubt on the original assuptions.
(It's a technique from mathematics, and it probably just means that I'm more of a nerd than is good for me Cool )

All I would argue from what I said is that IF Nefertiti was villified (literally and figuratively a big if), she would have had to have done more that just being associated with Akhenaten, because others where associated with him who were not villified. And if you look at my quote, that's really all it said.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Anneke wrote:
:
I have a hard time coming up with a good alternative (as are you I think from reading the comments )


That sounded degrading.


Shocked Don't see how you can turn a judgement free assessment into a degradation.

As you pointed out: every alternative scenario has reasonable doubt.
There are only finitely many women (whom we know of) that this mummy could be, and there seems the be something wrong with every single one of the candidates! Some have more serious problems than others, but still...
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Sitamun
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="anneke"]
Quote:


Side question:
What type of transgression would lead Egyptians to not mummify someone? Seems extremely harsh punishment.



This isn't a transgression really, but just an idea/question branching from yours, what about a body that was burned to death? That would seem kind of tricky. Once again just pointing out a reason for perhaps no mummy. I remember reading a fiction book at one time about Ank and Nef and in it I believed they had mentioned they were lynched/burned as a reason for no mummy. Once again not really proof, but an interesting theory.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had never thought about that. I don't remember ever hearing about mummies with burn marks.

I do know that some mummies were rather strange. There's a mummy of a Princess Sitamen from the very early years of the 18th dynasty that is really no more than a bundle of reeds.

That leads me to believe that they may just collect any remains and turn it into some mummiform bundle. But I really don't know for sure.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was reading a book and it contained a special article about this mummy. The author claimed that the most recent tests showed that the woman was around 30 years of age at the time of her death.

If that is true, than that fact combined with the blood group problem would make it impossible for her to be Tiye.

The author wasn't sure about the identity, but seemed to gravitate towards it being Ankhesenamun.
(Just reporting what I read Laughing )
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Psusennes III
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I voted for someone else, because the second picture of the mummy in this post shows the face in profile, if you compare this picture with the profiles of the mummies of Seti I, Merneptah but especially the one of Ramses II, you can see some resemblance in the faces, So I believe she might be early 19th dynasty royalty.

I don't know if this hair analyses realy matched the one in Tut's tomb, if really so, this undermines my theory a bit.
Sad
cheers
T.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a really interesting observation!

It really is speculative, but some wonder if the first Queens of the 19th dynasty may have been related to the 18th dynasty. There is no proof of this, but would make some sense.
If this lady shows some resemblence, then it would be possible that the 19th dynasty would be related to her. Maybe not in a direct line, but still...

Too bad that the royal ladies were not very well documented. Many of their family relations were not recorded. (Probably should read "most")
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Following on from the speculation - Smile which you know I love, of her being an 19th Dyn royal: no one yet has actually mentioned Sitre. We know virtually nothing at all about her, she was a Queen, an older woman. She would have had a physical resemblence to Seti etc.
As Great Royal Wife to Ramses I, mother/ grandmother to a successful line of following kings - she would have had the highest of respect (to state the obvious).

Some geneological sites have her as the granddaughter of Amenhotep III but there is no actual evidence of that.

No way of proving it anyway at this time. Sad
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But still a very nice line of thinking.
Never thought about the possibility.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sesen wrote:
Following on from the speculation - Smile which you know I love, of her being an 19th Dyn royal: no one yet has actually mentioned Sitre. We know virtually nothing at all about her, she was a Queen, an older woman. She would have had a physical resemblence to Seti etc.
As Great Royal Wife to Ramses I, mother/ grandmother to a successful line of following kings - she would have had the highest of respect (to state the obvious).

Some geneological sites have her as the granddaughter of Amenhotep III but there is no actual evidence of that.

No way of proving it anyway at this time. Sad


Ramses was already at court at this time, wasn't he? Was he already Vizier at that time, or did he get promoted under Horemheb?

Isn't Ramses I's (first??) wife on the 400 year stela named Tiy?
This has always been a confusing statement to egyptologists.
Other speculation: Could this be Tiy, first wife to Ramses I? Maybe she provides the link to the royals of the 18th dynasty?
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Ramses was already at court at this time, wasn't he? Was he already Vizier at that time, or did he get promoted under Horemheb?

If u meant "by the time of Amenhotep III"... Ramses didn't exactly need to crawl from the gutter, but his father was 'merely' a border garrison-lieutenant. Not an important man. Just because of Horemhebs ties to the army the later Ramses I rose to prominence. He was only mad vizier late in Horemhebs reign by the way - though I'm not sure on the identity of his predecessor. So I wouldn't consider it likely Ramses being at AIII's court. Not even at Akh's, Smench's, Tut's or Aye's either actually.

annie wrote:
Isn't Ramses I's (first??) wife on the 400 year stela named Tiy? This has always been a confusing statement to egyptologists. Other speculation: Could this be Tiy, first wife to Ramses I? Maybe she provides the link to the royals of the 18th dynasty?

I hope you're not referring to name-annalogies... Still, it could be Ramses was "given" a wife of royal descent, but only under the strict circumstance that he would've had to be "of standard" already. This would, following the previously said, only have been in the later part of Horemheb's reign. Would that still be possible then?
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uche... (hairball)
mad vizier*
made vizier*
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Segereh wrote:
anneke wrote:
Ramses was already at court at this time, wasn't he? Was he already Vizier at that time, or did he get promoted under Horemheb?

If u meant "by the time of Amenhotep III"... Ramses didn't exactly need to crawl from the gutter, but his father was 'merely' a border garrison-lieutenant. Not an important man. Just because of Horemhebs ties to the army the later Ramses I rose to prominence. He was only mad vizier late in Horemhebs reign by the way - though I'm not sure on the identity of his predecessor. So I wouldn't consider it likely Ramses being at AIII's court. Not even at Akh's, Smench's, Tut's or Aye's either actually.


I was referring to Tut's court. If this woman had a lock of her hair included in Tut's tomb, she would have lived either before or during his time.
Just making sure that what I was speculating about was not impossible from the get go. (I mean this being a Tiy, but maybe not the famous one. Instead the woman named on the 400 yr stela.)

There's another Queen Tiy: Aye's wife. But if you accept the 30 yrs of age at death, then this can't be her either.

Segereh wrote:
annie wrote:
Isn't Ramses I's (first??) wife on the 400 year stela named Tiy? This has always been a confusing statement to egyptologists. Other speculation: Could this be Tiy, first wife to Ramses I? Maybe she provides the link to the royals of the 18th dynasty?

I hope you're not referring to name-annalogies... Still, it could be Ramses was "given" a wife of royal descent, but only under the strict circumstance that he would've had to be "of standard" already. This would, following the previously said, only have been in the later part of Horemheb's reign. Would that still be possible then?

No, not referring to name analogies Very Happy The name was too popular for it to have any meaning in and of itself.

Purely speculating, because it wouldn't be too far fetched to include a royal lady among the many wives Ramses I would have had as King, and maybe even when it became clear that he was heir to the throne.

What bugs me though is that this woman was buried as a ruling Queen.
(Left arm bent)
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True. There's also the fact that the mentioned Tiy on the box-with-a-hairlock is definitely described as the Tiye we know to have been the spouse of AIII. If you use that as an argument.

Sigh... My consciousness is troubled.
Bah... What the hell... it's a good review. Smile
Here goes:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/4482/Tiye.html
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2004 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True.

Would Aye's wife Tiye have ultimately held exactly the same titles though? I'm not arguing it's her, or her "box". I'm just curious. (Call it an aside if you will Very Happy)

I really just brought the whole discussion up because there are some statements that seem to be treated as gospel. They are stated as though they are undisputed facts when they are not.
This woman being Tiye is one. There really just are major question marks.
Another is for instance the idea that Nefertiti is the daughter of Aye. Most books just state that as a fact, when it's really a theory based on (in IMHO) very flimsy circumstantial evidence.

Okay, I will get off my soap box now Cool (*ahh* that's better. I'm afraid of heights, so the soap box is a tad uncomfortable)
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