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Has anyone ever looked into this?
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dreamregent
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
dreamregent wrote:
... Sorry for having to school you ...

And what you dream at night? ... ... ...

Lutz


Well, buddy, I didn't dream that eocene rock formation that makes your literal interpretation of the landscape as it applies to the name Akhetaten an impossibility. If you can't see it blocking the view through the notch, you need some new glasses. The sun has NEVER visibly risen through that notch...that's simply an impossibility and a nonsense fantasy on your part. Technically speaking, based on your criteria, the rock formation behind would be the "3ht" and not the notch itself. Therefore, you reside in fantasyland if you continue to think you can get your literal interpretation out of the landscape. At least my ideas are possible...yours is a technical impossibility that you somehow failed to see right before your eyes because you suffer from tunnel vision.

Now, go troll somebody else's thread and stop polluting this one with your nonsensical & impossible interpretations.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dreamregent wrote:
... The sun has NEVER visibly risen through that notch...that's simply an impossibility and a nonsense fantasy on your part. Technically speaking, based on your criteria, the rock formation behind would be the "3ht" and not the notch itself. Therefore, you reside in fantasyland if you continue to think you can get your literal interpretation out of the landscape. ...

Too much of honor, the idea / discovery is not mine (I could only see with my own eyes that it is true, on one of my visits at Amarna). It is a fairly widespread view in Egyptology. That an Egyptologist ever contradicted is not known to me. Rare and amazing enough when it comes to Amarna...

Pleasing is, you obviously also followed the position taken by the majority of Egyptologists to interpret the so-called "Small Aton-Tempel" as a "House for Million of Years" (memorial temple, unfortunately misleadingly known under the term "Totentempel"). I was afraid because there comes now something like "Small Crater - and Large Crater - Temple"... Rolling Eyes

The "Houses of Million of Years" from the New Kingdom are all dedicated to a deity. The best known are undoubtedly the tempels on the West - Bank in Luxor. All are dedicated to the god Amun. They also served for the cult of the living and the dead king. Chapels were also common for the father or close members of the family of the king.

The cult axis of the Small Aten Temple in extension leads directly through the symbolic "Akhet - Hieroglyph" in the mountain to the Royal Tomb. The cult operation is therefore aimed at both, the "Horizon" of Aten and the eternal resting place of Akhenaten. Just these facts are indeed the reasons that the temple is interpreted as Million Year House for Akhenaten. The temple is dedicated to the worship of the Aten, and thus (according to Akhenaten) to his father.

Where do your ideas into the cult operating in the Great Temple come from I can not judge. However, they have no counterpart / basis in the texts from the New Kingdom about this theme.

dreamregent wrote:
... Now, go troll somebody else's thread and stop polluting this one with your nonsensical & impossible interpretations.

And once again, you are not the person to say me what I have to do or not. By the way, if I stop posting, then this would be no more a thread. It would just be a monologue by you...

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dreamregent
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I'm glad you stopped calling me names. That really bothered me. You know, some of my ideas might be a bit unorthodox but I think you know that I'm not just plucking them out of thin air. I do have some kind of basis to go on and develop them... i.e. there is a potential impact site at Amarna that can be checked out. I am not imagining that the geologic structure is there so there's no point in pretending it doesn't exist. Nobody has ever discovered anything without developing an unproven theory and then testing it to determine whether or not it is true. All theories start out unproven so I really don't understand why anyone would be critical of asking these questions considering that we obviously do have a potential impact site to test. If something comes up that precludes the possibility, trust me, I won't have any problem leaving it. But, I won't just give it up because someone doesn't like the fact that I have the gall to ask questions about something that might force changes to accepted theories.

In any case, can we call a truce, just be friends and talk about this like normal adults? Just because my ideas might be new doesn't mean they are completely crazy. I think you can tell that I am not an intellectual lightweight.

Lutz wrote:
(I could only see with my own eyes that it is true, on one of my visits at Amarna). It is a fairly widespread view in Egyptology.


If the sun was dim enough for people to actually see the disk, that is not what they would see. I hate to think anyone is lying about this so I'll just say that anyone who says they saw part of the sun disk way down in the "V" of the notch was overwhelmed by the glare and couldn't really see the sun disk at all. Here is your photo again with the land forms outlined.



It would be impossible to see the sun disk within the triangle because the disk can't possibly be seen through the rock formation in the background. The rock formation is actually part of the plateau and it can not become invisible so you could not possibly see the sun disk until it rose above the horizontal top of it, which is at the top of the triangle in the photo. I understand you may believe you saw otherwise but, in actuality, your eyes were overwhelmed by glare and you were not really seeing the sun disk at all. I'm sorry but I'm afraid the laws of physics have to be given the win on this one. It's simply impossible unless that rock formation became transparent.

[quote="Lutz"]Pleasing is, you obviously also followed the position taken by the majority of Egyptologists to interpret the so-called "Small Aton-Tempel" as a "House for Million of Years" (memorial temple, unfortunately misleadingly known under the term "Totentempel").

I'm sorry, but you misunderstood me. What I actually said was...

dreamregent wrote:
The Small Aten Temple is clearly a secondary temple, often thought of as a mortuary temple.


I wasn't really articulating my opinion here at all...that was just a general statement. However, if you like, I will fully articulate it. Personally, I think this temple had multiple purposes. It definitely served as the personal worship space of Akhnaten, the royal family, and whatever selected few he allowed inside it. Clearly, it seems to have been intended to provide a private personal connection between the current ruler of the dynasty and the deity. However, I believe it served as a mortuary temple as well because the axis is directly aligned with the Royal Wadi and his tomb. This amply demonstrates the personal nature of the Temple. It bears concurrent importance to both the living ruler as a house of worship or personal prayer space and, secondly, as a place of remembrance for the past rulers of the dynasty. However, in my opinion, it does not bear primary importance to Aten or the overall religion of Atenism...other than just as a normal place of worship like any other Aten Temple built anywhere else in Egypt.

Perhaps an analogy will make this clear...we'll use Catholicism. The Pope has a personal chapel where he prays every day. He doesn't go to St. Peter's Basilica and hold a huge service for his personal daily prayer time. Just because the Pope prays in his chapel, that doesn't mean the chapel bears the same significance to the overall religion of Catholicism as St. Peters Basilica. In my opinion, the Small Aten Temple was used in a similar fashion, as a personal temple, but also secondarily as a mortuary temple.

Lutz wrote:
The "Houses of Million of Years" from the New Kingdom are all dedicated to a deity. The best known are undoubtedly the tempels on the West - Bank in Luxor. All are dedicated to the god Amun. They also served for the cult of the living and the dead king. Chapels were also common for the father or close members of the family of the king.


Sure, every temple was dedicated to one god or another. However, those mortuary temples were secondary and generally did not replace the primary temples (aka Holiest Place) that already existed for those gods.

Lutz wrote:
The cult axis of the Small Aten Temple in extension leads directly through the symbolic "Akhet - Hieroglyph" in the mountain to the Royal Tomb. The cult operation is therefore aimed at both, the "Horizon" of Aten and the eternal resting place of Akhenaten. Just these facts are indeed the reasons that the temple is interpreted as Million Year House for Akhenaten. The temple is dedicated to the worship of the Aten, and thus (according to Akhenaten) to his father.


We may just have to agree to disagree here. My view is different because I do not see primary association with the overall religion other than as just another Temple of Aten. Meaning I don't see the Small Temple as rising to the same religious significance as the Great Temple, the main temple of the religion. I also believe that a clear distinction was made between the living pharaoh, his body, and his figurative joining with Aten after death as evidenced by the way the Temples were placed along with their alignments. In this respect, I think the Small Aten Temple served the purpose of mortuary rememberance and respect for his earthly body but was not specifically intended to focus on the "Akhnaten part" of Aten after the figurative joining following his death...at least, nothing special beyond the normal worship of Aten at any Aten temple.

As for the Great Aten Temple, I believe it had no heavenly association with the Royal Wadi or Akhnaten's Tomb. If it was also meant to be associated with the wadi or the tomb, It would have been placed in alignment with those features of the site. It was not placed in that alignment and I think this was done on purpose to show that Akhnaten's earthly concerns (i.e. his body) were meant to be separated from his heavenly persona as part of the Aten after death. Thus, there is no dependency within Atenism or the Great Aten Temple on the Royal Wadi, or any of the tombs because those are earthly concerns only.

All of this manifests itself in my view of the Royal Wadi as well. I believe the wadi/notch is of earthly concern only. It has no heavenly concern to Aten because, if it did, the Great Aten Temple would also be aligned with it. The notch is simply not the "3ht" of Aten from the perspective of the Great Aten Temple (i.e. the Great Temple will not get the same view of that sunrise above the notch as you do from the Small Temple). As the Great Temple is the "holiest place in Atenism," I believe this means the notch and the tombs were of no heavenly import to Aten because this temple is not aligned with them. To put it simply, I believe that if Aten was concerned with the notch, he would ensure that his Greatest Temple was aligned with it. Clearly, it was purposely built in a spot that is not aligned with the notch, so I interpret this to mean that a conspicuous separation between earthly and heavenly concerns was intended.

Lutz wrote:
Where do your ideas into the cult operating in the Great Temple come from I can not judge. However, they have no counterpart / basis in the texts from the New Kingdom about this theme.


This is another point where we may have to agree to disagree. Because Atenism was so much of an about-face and rejection of the traditional religious paradigm of Ancient Egypt, I don't think so much emphasis should be made to interpret everything at Amarna through the lens of dogmatic traditional views of the rest of Ancient Egypt. I think the general assumption among Egyptologists, when dealing with the Amarna period, is that everything was the same as the rest of AE except where it's found to be different. In contrast, I believe everything should just be looked at on it's own merits at the beginning and then look for similarities with traditional AE. I believe this because I think that tunnel vision has set in to some degree and this has possibly led to situations where things have been missed or misinterpreted because they weren't questioned to the degree they should have been.

I certainly believe there are many similarities between Amarna and the rest of AE. Also, I don't think Akhnaten rejected every single concept from AE traditions. However, I also think that we don't really have a good understanding on exactly how far different his views were because we really can't find enough evidence to build a complete picture. Thus, we should strive to reconcile as much as possible but also admit where we don't have the answers rather than just assume it was the same at Amarna as it was in the rest of AE if we don't have evidence (or we have unclear evidence) indicating the reality of the matter.
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dreamregent
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, since we were talking about these alignments, I just decided to play around a bit with the ruler in Google Earth...not on the temples, I measured those a long time ago.

However, I just decided to see how some of the other features stacked up. I found that those desert altars in the northern part of the plain are just about exactly in alignment with the formation I have labeled Example A.

It seems just a hair off square in the pic of the altars but maybe that's my fault...I think I would label that an interesting coincidence at the very least.




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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I took some more measurements...

  • The width of the foundations of the three structures together at the altar site seem to correspond with the diameter of the potential crater.
  • Also, if the map in this guidebook is correct, Meryra's Tomb (with the arcs on the wall) seems to lie directly between the altars and Example A.


If these are not connected, I have to say that's one of the strangest and most uncanny coincidences I've ever seen. And I'm absolutely certain that at least some of you would agree with that statement, regardless of whether you think that's really an impact crater.
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another coincidence?

The axis (perhaps the solar axis) of the North Palace... within a crater's width @ nearly 7 kilometers... A clue to the placement of the North Palace? I see it sometimes described as isolated. And the desert altars on an axis going over that group of tombs? Albeit, it's not the solar axis in that case but perhaps there's a practical reason that wouldn't work. Am I really being unreasonable in suspecting there might be something going on here?





Does anybody know where we can get data on the accuracy of Ancient Egyptian measurements when aligning features on the ground that are a long distance apart? Surely, there is some kind of margin of error. I know the Egyptians were generally very highly accurate. However, it's not humanly possible to make every single measurement completely plumb to the T. Perhaps we can compare if someone has calculated a margin of error...
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe I mentioned this earlier, but (if not) I think several meteorites hit the ground when this fireball exploded. I've actually been working on this for several months and I spent a couple of months scouring the desert after noticing Example A. I found just 6 structures that I really thought might be impact sites out of all the hundreds of holes & pits in the ground caused by water erosion. I think I would have saved a lot of time if I had just measured the major axes of the major buildings first.

The Great Palace in the central city is cocked at an angle, clearly off kilter from the rest of the buildings and the main axis is not aligned with the solstice. A couple of months ago, I found Example D in the desert and, now, I find that the main axis of the Great Palace points right at it. The error is smaller than for the North Palace and Example A.

Example D rests on the embankment of a wadi in the middle of nowhere about 26 kilometers away from the Great Palace. The water action clearly indicates a raised rim but the rim has been eroded away on the north side by runoff in the wadi bed. I believe it may look squashed because it hit the hillside. This structure is more than twice the size of Example A: 285 meters X ~170 meters.

You know, it's not like I'm measuring the axes of these houses. Primarily, I'm sticking to the main axes of the main buildings. Are we still within the realm of random coincidences? This is getting kind of surreal.

(The red line at the bottom is the solar axis from the Small Aten Temple.)




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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wait a sec...that's not the great palace... hmm... points at a potential crater, though.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ah... The Amarna Fuzz Laughing
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dreamregent wrote:
It would be impossible to see the sun disk within the triangle...

Nobody said that the sun has to be seen in the triangle. Sun disk and rockformation in front build the stylized "3ht" hieroglyph:



By the way, I can not remember that I allowed you to use / edit my image. Ever heard of copyright?

I had some research about the topic meteorites in ancient Egypt. Textual sources, there are very few. Really clearly is just one, from the time of Thutmose III on the so-called "Gebel Barkal Stela" (Urk IV, 1238, 10-13). Here the meteorite is interpreted by the king as a sign of the god Amun. Interestingly, Amun is also brought in Egyptology (also over Min) in connection with lightning and meteorites. See for that...

Gerald Averay Wainwright:

The relationship of Amun to Zeus and his connexion with meteorites. - In: Journal of Egyptian Archaeology 16. - 1930. - pp. 35 - 38.

Amun's meteorite & omphaloi. - In: Zeitschrift für Ägyptische Sprache und Altertumskunde 71. - 1935. - pp. 41 - 44.

Amuns sacred object at Thebes. - In: Annales du Service des Antiquités de l'Égypte 42. - 1943. - pp. 183 - 185.

The close connection between the god Amun and the natural phenomenon "meteorite" Akhenaten must have known likely...

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Lutz wrote:
The notch in the mountain range and the solar disk together then form the hieroglyph "3ht"

Nobody said that the sun has to be seen in the triangle. Sun disk and rockformation in front build the stylized "3ht" hieroglyph:



Ah...so, now it has to do with the rock formation in front (i.e. the cliff face) and NOT the notch itself. Can you make up your mind? Your arguments are becoming inconsistent. And even that is not a literal reading of the landforms. Although, the thickness of your line does a pretty good job of covering up the truth in the geologic contours of the plateau. This reminds me of bible thumpers who are so desperate to get out of scripture what they want to see that they end up twisting the words into a pretzel in order to achieve their goal...(i.e. attempting to interpret a spherical earth out of the text). Furthermore, I'm not sure how you can logically derive a literal application from something you interpreted subjectively.

Lutz wrote:
By the way, I can not remember that I allowed you to use / edit my image. Ever heard of copyright?


Laughing So, sue me! Though, I doubt you'll get anywhere in court with your tourist photos being used solely to demonstrate the fallacy of your arguments on a message board...especially when you used the photo as a prop yourself.

Lutz wrote:
I had some research about the topic meteorites in ancient Egypt. Textual sources, there are very few. Really clearly is just one, from the time of Thutmose III on the so-called "Gebel Barkal Stela" (Urk IV, 1238, 10-13). Here the meteorite is interpreted by the king as a sign of the god Amun. Interestingly, Amun is also brought in Egyptology (also over Min) in connection with lightning and meteorites. See for that...

Gerald Averay Wainwright:

The relationship of Amun to Zeus and his connexion with meteorites. - In: Journal of Egyptian Archaeology 16. - 1930. - pp. 35 - 38.

Amun's meteorite & omphaloi. - In: Zeitschrift für Ägyptische Sprache und Altertumskunde 71. - 1935. - pp. 41 - 44.

Amuns sacred object at Thebes. - In: Annales du Service des Antiquités de l'Égypte 42. - 1943. - pp. 183 - 185.

The close connection between the god Amun and the natural phenomenon "meteorite" Akhenaten must have known likely...

Lutz


Do you think that I haven't conducted any research into possible associations between AE & meteors? Another of my hobbies is amateur astronomy and I am very familiar with meteorites as well. I dare say that I likely know much more about this subject than you do. And you know, I'm not sure how any of what you cited means anything or is even relevant to the discussion. I never said meteors or meteorites were unknown at the time. They have certainly been visible in the sky for the entirety of human history. The association made in those papers is very similar to the association sometimes made between Atum of Heliopolis and the ben ben stone as well. The Egyptians certainly had objects made of meteoric iron long before any iron was used from a mine. Also, Libyan desert glass, which is often attributed a meteoric origin, has been known and used since the pleistocene. Although, the glass is millions of years old. So, I'm not sure why you think I am implying that the concept of meteors was new to the Egyptians. The only thing that I think might be new to Akhnaten and the Amarna period is that they may have taken notice of the potential formation of impact craters where fragments of an object may have hit the ground. While meteors in the sky would be relatively common, huge impact craters would have been extremely rare and, potentially, completely unknown to the people living during the Amarna period.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And before you try take what I said the wrong way... I was merely demonstrating the links with meteoric items & AE there. It's possible the AEs knew the source of meteoric iron. However, they had no formal concept of science so there's no reason to think they derived a meteoric origin for the desert glass, even though they definitely used it in things like jewelry.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I use my photos or documents herein, this will not mean that you can use them also without asking for. I hereby forbid this officially, after the outrageous response, though it actually would have had to be an excuse on this point... Upbringing has one or not.

Boooring ... As before, you have nothing more than a few lines and circles on Google Earth maps drawn by yourself. Pretty, but there is no reference to textual and archaeological sources. On the contrary, the latter speak against your fantasies.

And that Akhenaten has been moved by a sign / symbol of the god Amun establishing his new capital ... This reminds me of nothing more, just ridiculous.

Thats all from me on this, much more fun to you in your wonderland with your monologues...

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing

Do you think I care if you choose to stick your head in the sand. Quite frankly, I expected a certain percentage of people to do nothing less before I even made the suggestion. However, I think everyone can see that I am not imagining these geologic structures, which have no apparent explanation, on the ground around Amarna.

Lutz wrote:
When I use my photos or documents herein, this will not mean that you can use them also without asking for. I hereby forbid this officially, after the outrageous response, though it actually would have had to be an excuse on this point... Upbringing has one or not.


So your documents can't be quoted within the context of a debate either? Do you also print all your text on images in an attempt to ensure that no one can ever quote your own statements as evidence to challenge your self-identified infallible opinions? You made material statements about the image shown in the photo that I have demonstrated are false. Then, I exposed the illogical inconsistencies in your statements about it. Isn't this the real reason why you're whining about this?

Lutz wrote:
you have nothing more than a few lines and circles on Google Earth maps drawn by yourself.


I didn't draw the huge bowl-shaped geologic land formations exhibiting elevated berms or rims around them. They were there long before I saw them, I assure you. Additionally, my theory was not predicated on any of the building alignments. In fact, I didn't even know about these potential alignments until the last few days so they are actually unnecessary to my theory. They simply show another potential link with the city.

Lutz wrote:
And that Akhenaten has been moved by a sign / symbol of the god Amun establishing his new capital ... This reminds me of nothing more, just ridiculous.


Well, it sounds like you agree that it could potentially have been a sign of great import to prompt Akhenaten to make such vast changes to society in a relative instant. It seems almost as if it might have been an event momentuous enough to prompt him to suddenly snap to attention and run full bore in a totally new religious direction or something. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also to turn around the words from my postings and to suppose me statements that I never gave, do not help... It is unproven boring nonsense, contrary the ancient textual and archeology evidence. sleepy4 sleepy1 sleepy2

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