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Building Pharaoh's Chariot
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Montuhotep88
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:00 pm    Post subject: Building Pharaoh's Chariot Reply with quote

Smile Aired last evening (2/6) on PBS here. I only caught about the last 35 minutes of it, but it was good.

Perhaps they explained it in the beginning part I didn't see, but I was annoyed by the time limitation they had to build the chariot. It seemed like a really artificial (and needless) mechanism to build drama.

But I was fascinated by watching them put the chariots through their paces, readjust things as they learned more... and the reaction of the military historian was great. He was so into it, saying that the chariot was a natural weapons platform, even when moving and maneuvering.

I also appreciated that they talked about Thutmose III instead of giving airtime to the perennially overexposed Tutankhamun.

Overall, great stuff.
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Naunacht
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Building Pharaoh's Chariot Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:
Smile Aired last evening (2/6) on PBS here. I only caught about the last 35 minutes of it, but it was good.

Perhaps they explained it in the beginning part I didn't see, but I was annoyed by the time limitation they had to build the chariot. It seemed like a really artificial (and needless) mechanism to build drama.

But I was fascinated by watching them put the chariots through their paces, readjust things as they learned more... and the reaction of the military historian was great. He was so into it, saying that the chariot was a natural weapons platform, even when moving and maneuvering.

I also appreciated that they talked about Thutmose III instead of giving airtime to the perennially overexposed Tutankhamun.

Overall, great stuff.


Damn, I missed it. As a horsewoman I have a real interest in ancient horsemanship. I'll have to check it out. Thanks for posting.
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Naunacht
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The show is available on the Nova Website.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/pharaoh-chariot.html

It is very, very, very cool.

They reproduced the electrum chariot that Thutmose III used at the Battle of Megiddo and put it through what amounted to a torture test over rough ground, through water and in deep sand. As a Thutmose III groupie and a horse lover this was great.

I've ridden in and actually driven a replica Roman chariot, one of the rigs built for the movie Ben Hur, no less and it was bumpy and tooth jarring as all hell. I'd imagined that the Egyptian chariot would have been just as uncomfortable. I could never figure out how the Egyptian archers could manage to hit the broad side of a pyramid off of one of those things.

It turned out the Egyptian chariot was a much more sophisticated vehicle. It was light, springy and stable. Military expert Mike Loades, who is always a blast, found that it made a very stable shooting platform even when racing and turning at top speed. He got off several shots and hit every target dead on. It was also fast. The little Arabian horses they used got up to the speed that Arabian horses racing under saddle run at.

There is also cool added video where Mike Loades tests the effectiveness of Egyptian rawhide scale armor and explains how those funny looking little Khopresh swords were actually a very deadly weapon, effective for slashing, thrusting and capable of tearing down a man's shield and capable pulling his guts out.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naunacht wrote:
As a Thutmose III groupie and a horse lover this was great.


Okay, good... maybe you can explain to me the argument they were having over the harnesses? I understood it on the level of "it's not quite right but they're not sure how to make it right," but the specifics went over my equine-ignorant head. Laughing
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:
Naunacht wrote:
As a Thutmose III groupie and a horse lover this was great.


Okay, good... maybe you can explain to me the argument they were having over the harnesses? I understood it on the level of "it's not quite right but they're not sure how to make it right," but the specifics went over my equine-ignorant head. Laughing


The harness which they devised from bits of ancient harness and from ancient paintings and reliefs was of a very different type than modern harness. In a modern harness, the saddle, the piece which goes behind the horse's withers does not bear any significant weight. The saddle and the breastcollar are fitted to allow some freedom of movement or the horses will be very uncomfortable and either refuse to work or if forced, be badly galled.

When they adjusted the Egyptian harness with some give to it, the way the trainer thought it should work the harness was clearly causing the horses discomfort and they were kicking out and balking. The trainer (the woman) was afraid that if they tightened up the harness that it would hurt the animals even more and she obviously didn't want to do that. On the other hand the guy who designed the chariot thought from the start that the harness should be tighter and it turned out he was right.

Once they tightened it up and added more padding the horses were far more comfortable and began to work willingly, in fact they did really well, handling rough terrain, fast, sharp turns & water crossings like seasoned combined driving veterans. In fact they did so well, I'm wondering if you the Combined Driving Association rules would allow you to use an Egyptian chariot in competition. Hmmm. Idea
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting this thread. I managed to get a copy and we watched it yesterday evening. It just goes to show how technically adept the Pharaonic chariot builders were.
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falkor
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This wasn't the first documentary about the Chariot and by no means, probably, the last. There was also one made in 2003 FYI.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In December 2012 there was the

International Conference on Ancient Egyptian Chariotry

at Nederlands-Vlaams Instituut in Cairo, Egypt.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Naunacht
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
In December 2012 there was the

International Conference on Ancient Egyptian Chariotry

at Nederlands-Vlaams Instituut in Cairo, Egypt.

Greetings, Lutz.


As always, thank you Lutz.
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Tai Miuwette
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a subject which has always been of particular interest to me and one book I can recommend if you've not read it already is:

Early Harness Systems by J. Spruytte, published by J.A. Allen & Company, London in 1983.

This book has a complete chapter on the Egyptian chariot, its reconstruction and the harness together with the author's conclusions. It is interesting to note that it was not possible to harness animals standing higher than 1.28m (12 hands 2 1/2") to the withers to the chariot due to its dimensions which would seem to prove that the Egyptian horses were quite small and more pony in size. Another excellent book is:

Chariots and Related Equipment from the Tomb of Tutankhamun by M.A. Littauer & J.H. Crouwel from the Tutankhamun's Tomb Series (Griffith Institute, Oxford).
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Naunacht
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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tai Miuwette wrote:
This is a subject which has always been of particular interest to me and one book I can recommend if you've not read it already is:

Early Harness Systems by J. Spruytte, published by J.A. Allen & Company, London in 1983.

This book has a complete chapter on the Egyptian chariot, its reconstruction and the harness together with the author's conclusions. It is interesting to note that it was not possible to harness animals standing higher than 1.28m (12 hands 2 1/2") to the withers to the chariot due to its dimensions which would seem to prove that the Egyptian horses were quite small and more pony in size. Another excellent book is:

Chariots and Related Equipment from the Tomb of Tutankhamun by M.A. Littauer & J.H. Crouwel from the Tutankhamun's Tomb Series (Griffith Institute, Oxford).


Thanks for the suggestion. I've seen the Littauer book but not the other one.

As far as the size of the horses go, I do remember that in the video, the trainer while she was "horse shopping" was quite adament that she needed small horses--nothing above 14 hands. I believe that one of the horses got a leg over the chariot pole and broke it so even though though these were small by modern Arabian standards they were probably too tall for this chariot.

Having ridden years ago in a model Roman chariot that had made for the movie Ben Hur behind a pair of Belgian draft horses (the horses used in the movie were mostly Thoroughbreds & Arabians) I can attest that the size of the horses makes a big difference.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naunacht wrote:
Lutz wrote:
In December 2012 there was the

International Conference on Ancient Egyptian Chariotry

at Nederlands-Vlaams Instituut in Cairo, Egypt.

Greetings, Lutz.

As always, thank you Lutz.


Chasing Chariots - Proceedings of the first international chariot conference (Cairo 2012). - [Ed. A.J.Veldmeijer / S.Ikram]. - Leiden : Sidestone Press, 2013. - ISBN : 9789088902093. - 270 p., richly illustrated, mostly in colour. - EUR 39,95.

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Abstract:

The present work is the result of the First International Chariot Conference, jointly organised by the Netherlands-Flemish Institute in Cairo (NVIC) and the American University in Cairo (AUC) (30 November to 2 December 2012). The intention of the conference was to make a broad assessment of the current state of knowledge about chariots in Egypt and the Near East, and to provide a forum for discussion.

A wide variety of papers are included, ranging from overviews to more detailed studies focusing on a specific topic. These include philology, iconography, archaeology, engineering, history, and conservation. The book is of interest to scholars as well as anyone with an interest in ancient technology, transportation, or warfare.

Dr. André J. Veldmeijer is Assistant Director for Egyptology of the Netherlands-Flemish Institute in Cairo and has worked as archaeologist in Egypt since 1995 as specialist in, among others, leatherwork and footwear. He (co-) directs several projects, such as the Ancient Egyptian Leatherwork Project, which includes the Egyptian Museum Chariot Project, and the Tutankhamun Sticks & Staves Project. He has published extensively, both scientifically as popular.

Dr. Salima Ikram is Professor of Egyptology at the American University in Cairo, and has worked as an archaeologist in Egypt since 1986, directing the Animal Mummy Project, and co-directing the Predynastic Gallery project, the Egyptian Museum Chariot Project, and the North Kharga Oasis Survey. Dr. Ikram has lectured and published extensively, both for children and adults.

not available yet, coming soon

PRE-ORDER NOW FOR A REDUCED INTRODUCTION PRICE

Contents:

A Survey of the Diplomatic Role of the Charioteers in the Ramesside Period
Mohamed Raafat Abbas

A Possible Chariot Canopy for Tutankhamun
Edwin C. Brock

Vehicle of the Sun: The Royal Chariot in the New Kingdom
Amy M. Calvert

Studying the Six Chariots from the Tomb of Tutankhamun – An Update
Joost Crouwel

The Introduction of the Light, Horse-Drawn Chariot and the Role of Archery in the Near East at the Transition from the Middle to the Late Bronze Ages: Is there a Connection?
Hermann Genz

On Urartian Chariots
Bilcan Gökce, Kenan Isik & Hatice Degirmencioglu

Chariots in the Daily Life of New Kingdom Egypt: A Survey of Production, Distribution and Use in Texts
Ole Herslund

The Chariot as a Mode of Locomotion in Civil Contexts
Heidi Köpp-Junk

The Chariot that Plunders Foreign Lands: ‘The Hymn to the King in His Chariot’
Colleen Manassa

A Glimpse into the Workshops of the Chariotry of Qantir-Piramesse – Stone and Metal Tools of Site Q I
Silvia Prell

Wagons and Carts in the 3rd Millennium BC Syrian Jazirah: A Study through the Documentation
Mattia Raccidi

Depictional Study of Chariot Use in New Kingdom Egypt
Lisa Sabbahy

Art and Imperial Ideology: Remarks on the Depiction of Royal Chariots on Wall Reliefs in New-Kingdom Egypt and the Neo-Assyrian Empire
Arianna Sacco

Chariots’ Inner Dynamics: Springs and Rotational Inertias
Bela I. Sandor

An Alternative Theory for ‘Bit-Wear’ Found on the Lower Second Premolar of the Buhen Horse
Yukiko Sasada

Egyptian Chariots: Departing for War
Anthony Spalinger

Charging Chariots: Progress Report on the Tano Chariot in the Egyptian Museum Cairo
André J. Veldmeijer, Salima Ikram & Lucy Skinner

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"The New Kingdom Chariot" – An Em Hotep Interview with Kathy Hansen (Keith Payne, 2013).

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chasing Chariots - Proceedings of the first international chariot conference (Cairo 2012). - [Ed. A.J.Veldmeijer / S.Ikram]. - Leiden : Sidestone Press, 2012. - ISBN : 9789088902093. - 270 p., richly illustrated, mostly in colour. - 39,95 €

is now available, also for free online browsing and reading.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Naunacht
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Chasing Chariots - Proceedings of the first international chariot conference (Cairo 2012). - [Ed. A.J.Veldmeijer / S.Ikram]. - Leiden : Sidestone Press, 2012. - ISBN : 9789088902093. - 270 p., richly illustrated, mostly in colour. - 39,95 €

is now available, also for free online browsing and reading.

Greetings, Lutz.


Thanks Lutz this is a real interest of mine.
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