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Nakhpaaten
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:34 am    Post subject: Re: throne name Reply with quote

Thieuke wrote:
... semenchkara ... we still have to figure out who was meant with this name. ...

Have we not discussed this here in the forum often enough? As long as there are no new results from research, I personally see little point in doing it for the umpteenth time ... only to come again to the result that among Egyptologists as well as among members of the forum there are different views.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Thieuke
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:42 pm    Post subject: free board Reply with quote

well it happens to be an era im interested in. You don't have to involve yourself with every thread on this board or respond to every post. If a line looses your interest feel free not to respond. Smile
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neseret
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[/smnx-kA-ra Dsr xpr.w/ = Smenkhkare = "Vigorous is the Soul of Re, Holy of Manifestations." (Attested at Amarna, Hermopolis, etc. as well as Jar (Carter 405) from Tutankhamun's tomb)

/twt-anx-itn/ = Tutankhaten = "Living image of the Aten." (Attested in Urk. IV 2056, and upon the Hermopolis block: see

G. Roeder, Amarna-Reliefs aus Hermopolis: Ausgrabungen der Deutschen Hermopolis-Expedition in Hermopolis 1929–1939, ed. R. Hanke, Pelizaeus-Museum zu Hildesheim, Wissenschaftliche Veröffentlichung 6 (Hildesheim: Verlag Gebrüder Gerstenberg, 1969), pls. 105 (56–VIIIA) and 106 (831-VIIIC).

See also, Gabolde, on the joining of two halves of the same block, with Ankhsenpaaten's name, in

Grimm, A. and S. Schoske, Eds. 2001. Das Geheimnis des goldenen Sarges. Echnaton und das Ende der Amarnazeit. Schriften aus der Ägyptischen Sammlung (SAS) 10. Munich: Staatlichens Museum Ägyptischer Kunst, and

This is further discussed by Allen in

Allen, J. P. 2009 (2006). The Amarna Succession. In P. Brand and L. Cooper, Eds., Causing His Name to Live: Studies in Egyptian Epigraphy and History in Memory of William J. Murnane: 9-20. Culture and History of the Ancient Near East Volume 37. Leiden: Brill.

Image of block, as defined by Gabolde (from Allen 2006):



'Tutankhaten' can also be found on the Golden Throne (Carter 91), as shown in Gardiner's notes to same.. The cartouches on this throne were being changed from "Tutankhaten" to "Tutankhamun," according to Gardiner.

It should be noted there is no reason to think that simply because Tutankhaten was Tutankhamun's original name this makes association with Smenkhkare unfeasible. In Atenism, Re was considered as an equal deity to the Aten and was so honoured by Akhenaten throughout his reign.

Considering that Baketaten, daughter of Tiye and Amenhotep III, is also given an -aten suffix to her name indicates, to me, that the entire extended royal family (from Akhenaten through Tutankhamun) was not opposed to using -aten or -re suffixes during the Amarna period.

It is a misstatement to maintain that deities such as Re, Thoth, and even Bes, Hathor, etc. were not allowed during the Amarna period - they were as various articles (cited below), indicate.

References:

Bomann, A. H. 1991. The Private Chapel in Ancient Egypt. A Study of the Chapels in the Workmen's Village at El Amarna with Special Reference to Deir el Medina and Other Sites. Studies in Egyptology. London: Kegan Paul International.

Freed, R. E., et al., Eds. 1999. Pharaohs of the Sun: Akhenaten: Nefertiti: Tutankhamen. Boston: Museum Fine Arts/Bulfinch Press/Little, Brown and Company.

Giles, F. J. 2001. The Amarna Age: Egypt. Australian Centre for Egyptology: Studies 6. Warminster: Aris and Philips Ltd.

Hess, R. S. 1993. Amarna Personal Names. American Schools of Oriental Research 9. Winona Lake: Eisenbrauns.

Hornung, E. 1992. The Rediscovery of Akhenaten and His Place in Religion. JARCE 29: 43-9.

_________. 1999. Akhenaten and the Religion of Light. D. Lorton, transl. Ithaca: Cornell University Press.

Murnane, W. J. 1995. Texts from the Amarna Period in Egypt. Society of Biblical Literature: Writings from the Ancient World 5. Atlanta: Scholars Press.

Stevens, A. 2003. The Material Evidence for Domestic Religion at Amarna and Preliminary Remarks on its Interpretation. JEA 89: 143-68.

HTH.
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Frater0082
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that Ankheperure Neferneferuaten was Meritaten without a doubt. I think Meritaten shared her mother's throne name. Meritaten might have been the Neferneferuaten that everyone kept rambling about it makes perfect since that she was.

Again I don't think Smenhkhare had a sole rule on his own I think he was just a co-regent for a very sickly king. I think the reason why he and Meritaten shared the name "Ankheperure" is signify that they are a unity, thus King and Queen.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frater0082 wrote:
I think that Ankheperure Neferneferuaten was Meritaten without a doubt. I think Meritaten shared her mother's throne name. ...

The Great Kings Wife of Akhenaton, Neferneferuaton-Nefertiti, mother of Meritaton, had (like every GKW of Egypt) no throne name ... Unless she was also the female king Anch(et)cheperura Neferneferuaton ... If so, then her throne name was Anch(et)cheperura.

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Vangu Vegro
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, a box lid from Tutankhamun's tomb (Carter 1k IIRC) mentions both Ankhkheperura Neferneferuaten and Meritaten in the same inscription, does it not? In that case, can we rule out Meritaten as a possible candidate for being King Neferneferuaten?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be honest I'm no historian so I don't pay attention to that but if u want to rule her out as king N then that's fine
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my perspective, it makes little sense behind "Anch (et) cheperura Neferneferuaton" anyone else to suggest as Nefertiti. This also determines the ephitets this female pharaoh used (among other, effective for her husband). That can it not be Meritaton should also for you be clear, at the latest after the post from Vangu Vegro (also as a non-historian ... as I, by the way).

Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay
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Frater0082
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nakhpaaten could also possibly the father of Smenkhare who knows. I dont think a royal princess marrying a nobleman's son was unheard of especially in that dynasty hmp thats probably why he was killed off. I know I know I said he got killed off but how else do u explain his disappearance i don't think he fell terribly ill and die. Another possibility is that he could have been a foreigner. Perhaps placing a commoner to co-rule the kingdom ticked off the High Priest of Amun and they had to by get rid of him.

I dont see Smenkhare as Tuts father I see him as his brother in law thus no relation to the family at all.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Think" and "See" has not the slightest importance. For a theory then it takes quite something more ... How about (in your case just for change) with supporting documents?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like i said who knows where he came from
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