Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Henut-wadjbu in KV 63
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Pyramids, Tombs, & Monuments
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Frater0082
Account Suspended


Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Frater0082 wrote:
... I will say this though that the archaeological dating for the time after Tutankaten is wrong. The nineteenth Dynasty began about almost a decade( 8 years) after the 18th dynasty fell. Ay and Horembed shared about the same reign length. ...

As I said, fairy tales by ignoring again and again the archaeological evidence...

Martin, Geoffrey T. : Re-excavating KV 57 (Horemheb) in the Valley of the Kings. - In: Abstract of Papers - Tenth International Congress of Egyptologists. University of the Aegean Rhodes, 22-29 May 2008. - 2008. - pp. 162 - 163

Martin found jar dockets bearing year dates 13 and 14 of Horemheb by re-excavating the well shaft in Chamber E (TMP). The highest date for Aja is year 4.

For the rest ... Rolling Eyes ... sleepy2

Lutz


May I remind you that he served 14 years as a General. Who knows maybe its from his time served as a General.

I'm not ignoring anything from the archeological records because there is nothing that im inplying that I am.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Frater0082
Account Suspended


Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might as well say Horembed co-ruled during the time of Tutankhamen because he was the 2nd powerful guy around and Tut was just a boy I doubt that a 9yr old knew how to run a kingdom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Frater0082
Account Suspended


Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might as well say Horembed co-ruled during the time of Tutankhamen because he was the 2nd powerful guy around and Tut was just a boy I doubt that a 9yr old knew how to run a kingdom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 4163
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frater0082 wrote:
Lutz wrote:
Frater0082 wrote:
... I will say this though that the archaeological dating for the time after Tutankaten is wrong. The nineteenth Dynasty began about almost a decade( 8 years) after the 18th dynasty fell. Ay and Horembed shared about the same reign length. ...

As I said, fairy tales by ignoring again and again the archaeological evidence...

Martin, Geoffrey T. : Re-excavating KV 57 (Horemheb) in the Valley of the Kings. - In: Abstract of Papers - Tenth International Congress of Egyptologists. University of the Aegean Rhodes, 22-29 May 2008. - 2008. - pp. 162 - 163

Martin found jar dockets bearing year dates 13 and 14 of Horemheb by re-excavating the well shaft in Chamber E (TMP). The highest date for Aja is year 4.

For the rest ... Rolling Eyes ... sleepy2

Lutz


May I remind you that he served 14 years as a General. Who knows maybe its from his time served as a General.

I'm not ignoring anything from the archeological records because there is nothing that im inplying that I am.

Yes you do... Since he is already "King of Upper and Lower Egypt" on the jug seals and has a throne name, the wine can not be from the time when he was general. A general by the way counted also no government years... You'd like urgent to address times with basic questions about ancient Egypt. You're really slow you simply laughable by the nonsense you give of yourself here...

For Tutankhamun is no co-regent known, whether at Amarna or in his time in Memphis. That he had consultants, like every king, is undisputed.

Horemheb built the 9th and 10th pylon at the southern axis in Karnak. He added to the temple of Amun the second pylon in the West, which was 35 m high and 98 m wide and he used for this purposes stones from the destroyed Aton sanctuary.

Also from Karnak comes the so-called Restoration Stela of Tutankhamun, later usurped by Horemheb. He also deleted the names of Tutankhamun and Aja on two buildings from there reign at Karnak. One of which probably served as a "House for Millions of Years" for Tutankhamen. The buildings were eventually demolished and the stones were reused as a filler for the pylons built under the reign of Horemheb.

So he clearly started to delete the memory of all of his Amarna predecessor.

Lutz
_________________
Ägyptologie Forum (German)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
neseret
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 1033
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frater0082 wrote:
Lutz wrote:
Tell fairy tales sums it up more...

Lutz


I will say this though that the archaeological dating for the time after Tutankaten is wrong. The nineteenth Dynasty began about almost a decade( 8 years) after the 18th dynasty fell. Ay and Horembed shared about the same reign length.


As Lutz has already covered this, all I can say is that you ignore archaeological evidence at your peril if you wish to be taken seriously, IMO.

Frater0082 wrote:
It is incorrectly stated that Horembed was the one responsible for the erasure of the Aten Pharaohs on monuments and historical records it was the Ramessides that did all that dirty work.

If Horembed did reign for as long as they say he did, he would have had a successful reign. To me, when reading Horembed's accomplishments, he didn't do much for a king whom reigned for almost two decades. I thought he would have done anything to disrespect Tutankaten in death because Tut declared him his successor.


I would care to see what evidence you have for any of these statements. As Lutz noted, we have the regnal years of Horemheb up to Year 14. The Aten temples were closed under Horemheb (it's part of one of his decrees as king as I recall (see Murnane 1995), the land was in disarray after Tutankhamun's death because (as we know from the "Egyptian Queen" correspondence), there was no heir known at the death of Tutankhamun.

Archaeologically we know there was also a power struggle for the throne between Ay, Horemheb, and possibly others, after the death of Tutankhamun, in which Ay was the victor. Ay attempted to name his own successor in Nakhtmin, and that a very severe power struggle took place between Horemheb and Nakhtmin after the death of Ay, in which anyone who supported Ay or Nakhtmin became victims of Horemheb's revenge (see in particular, Ockinga 1997).

So, rather than exhibit your historical ignorance, I suggest reading more scholarly articles on the period.

Frater0082 wrote:
Seti had a great hatred for Akhenaten for his religous turmoils. King Seti wouldn't even have known about Akhenaten or his religious turmoils unless he may have lived it. Even according to Wikipedia( your sources) King Seti's main priority was to establish order in Egypt's society. Why? when clearly there was more than enough time to do this before him. This is another indication that Horembed only reigned for a short period of time. They hated our guts.


Seti I was not born until well after the death of Akhenaten, or near the middle of Tutankhamun's reign (since Seti I was less than 40 years old at death, possibly 37, having died after an 11 year reign. Thus, you have him attaining the throne at 26, after the 2 year reign of his father Ramses I, the 14 year reign of Horemheb, a 4 year reign of Ay: this leaves his birth date near Year 4 Tutankhamun). Ramses, Seti's father, was a stablemaster in the army at this point, while Ramses' brother, Khaemwaset, served as a fan bearer in Tutankhamun's court (Cruz-Uribe 1978).

The Ramessids, who considered Horemheb one of their "ancestors," although there was no direct familial relationship between the two groups, held the Amarna period in the same contempt as did Horemheb. However, statements such as "Enemy of Akhetaten" and "heretic" did not appear in records until the reign of Ramses II, in legal documents referring to incidents occurring Akhenaten's reign (see Murnane 1995) - but the Ramessids themselves more simply ignored the period altogether.

Frater0082 wrote:
Akhetaten was in ruins by the time of Ramses I. It looked as it is today. No, I did not live a fairy tale life skipping down the valleys and playing in the Nile, it was a nightmare for me and my sisters


Akhetaten continued as a working port and small city through the reign of Ramses II: the workmen's village shows inhabitation through that period, when the Nile channel silted up and left the city stranded. We have archaeological and textual evidence for this (see most of Kemp's work at Amarna, for starters), so again, I suggest you read more scholarly work rather than rely on your "visions." It is not evidence.

(snipped remaining silliness)

References:

Cruz-Uribe, E. 1978. The Father of Ramses I: OI 11456. JNES 37/3: 237-244.

Murnane, W. J. 1995. Texts from the Amarna Period in Egypt. Society of Biblical Literature: Writings from the Ancient World 5. Atlanta: Scholars Press.

Ockinga, B. G. 1997. A Tomb from the Reign of Tutankhamun at Akhmim. Australian Center for Egyptology Reports 10. Warminster: Aris and Phillips.
_________________
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg

Doctoral Candidate
Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies
Doctoral Programme [Egyptology]
Oxford University
Oxford, United Kingdom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Frater0082
Account Suspended


Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No I will not because as always they are proved wrong. I stand by story and that's that. Furthermore those visions are memories. Not once did I declare my memories as evidence NOT ONCE. Perhaps you need to listen more than opening your fly trap

I came this post wondering about that Henut-Wajebu character not to talk about my story but since Lutz took me there i'm going there.

The only reason why I assume that Horembed had a short reign is because when I returned to Egypt, it was not Horembed on the throne it was Ramses I. I was 19yrs old, if Horembed was around I would have arrived in his fourth year. But he was not there, NOT AT ALL

How the hell do you know what year Seti was born HOW? You claim Y4 of Tutankhamen but where in God's name is your evidence. Plus if you are accurate on this I don't see how Seti would have known about Akhenaten. It is clear that Seti had a real hatred for Akhenaten even more so than his predecessors.

Thirdly, it is suggested that Seti's main focus was to restore order in Egpyt. How so when clearly there was MORE than enough time to do that before him

4 Pharaohs and Egypt was still inturmoil(why is that)
niether Ay nor Horembed had a single heir
Hmmm but it sounds to me that the end of dynasty 18 was scanty

Now my side to the story

I know Seti waz on a mission to wipe my father ourselves of history because my sisters and saw it for our very eyes. Under Ramses orders my father and his burial goods had to be moved from thier original resting place. Mery and Ankh watched the guards deface our relatives from the records it brought them to tears.

Seti was a Prince regent at the time the prince was a few years older than myself.

Iastly when I said might as well I didnt meant that Horembed was a co-regent regent. HELL some one was because Tut was 9. Someone had to acted on his part until he was old enough to make his own decisions some one like Ay but more pacifically Horembed because he had more power than Ay.

Again one or two of those officials had a thrid hand on the throne I don't care what everyone else says I believe this.

Seti eased up on my family because of me. I was his other half and he was might I sat on the right of the King as if I was Queen. Together we mapped and designed out some of Seti's monuments. It's sad that we never got to see them finish and I will never get a chance with him again.

Lutz leave me alone with this because I'm trying to move on in my life from this and you are making matters worse.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 4163
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frater0082 wrote:
... but since Lutz took me there i'm going there. ... Lutz leave me alone with this because I'm trying to move on in my life from this and you are making matters worse.

Honey, I have you merely pointed out that your fairy tales do not fit to the known archaeological evidence (exactly as Neseret has done this now several times) and that you reveal a significant amount of missing basic knowledge with many of your strange statements.

Your, in my view, the facts of a mental disorder fulfilling secretions do not interest me. On the contrary, I have very early pointed out that you're completely wrong here in this forum. In my view you belong in therapeutic treatment. The latter I can only repeat and affirm...

Lutz
_________________
Ägyptologie Forum (German)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 4163
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frater0082 wrote:
... How the hell do you [Neseret] know what year Seti was born HOW? You claim Y4 of Tutankhamen but where in God's name is your evidence. ...

By logical examination and analysis of the known facts. The latter in detail in her post, understandable and comprehensible set out for everyone...

Lutz
_________________
Ägyptologie Forum (German)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
kylejustin
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 1231
Location: victoria, australia

PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you don't like being told your delusional, or that your dreams/visions whatever they are, are false and do match not facts, don't bother to post. simple as that.

this is a forum that works by evidence. someone asks a question, no one answers with fiction. they give an answer you can check for yourself in a book, or a website.

no one accepts your thoughts as fact, you yourself say they are not facts, so how about you do us all a favour and shut up? go publish it as fiction again. that way someone may actually be interested and might, just might pay money to read it.
_________________
heaven won't take me.......hell's afraid i'll take over.....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
herper
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 18 Feb 2010
Posts: 229
Location: New Haven,CT USA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frater0082 I think you just like to be the center of attention, and/or the village idiot. You ignore well know facts and present theories with zero facts to back them. May i suggest you would be happier on a site for fictional history? Idea
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
neseret
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 1033
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frater0082 wrote:
No I will not because as always they are proved wrong. I stand by story and that's that. Furthermore those visions are memories. Not once did I declare my memories as evidence NOT ONCE. Perhaps you need to listen more than opening your fly trap


While Lutz and Kevin have stated their opinion as to your "memories", let me point out that you constantly present your "memories" as if they were truth we should all believe. You state, for example:

It is incorrectly stated that Horembed was the one responsible for the erasure of the Aten Pharaohs on monuments and historical records it was the Ramessides that did all that dirty work.

First of all, the name is "Horemheb", not 'Horembed." It is also factually wrong that Horemheb did not work towards the erasure of the Amarna kings, as Lutz has factually shown, with the tearing down of Amarna temples and using them for filler in the Ninth Pylon. It is Horemheb's own decree, which you can read in Murnane (1995) and any number of translations (Davies 1992-95; Breasted 1906), that closes the Aten temples.

If you wish to refuse to read factual information, and rely upon your "memories" as to what happened, that is YOUR choice, but you have no right to impose these "memories" upon the rest of us and expect us to accept them as 'evidence' of what actually occurred.

Frater0082 wrote:
The only reason why I assume that Horembed had a short reign is because when I returned to Egypt, it was not Horembed on the throne it was Ramses I. I was 19yrs old, if Horembed was around I would have arrived in his fourth year. But he was not there, NOT AT ALL.


Again, you present this information as if we should actually accept it as fact: it's YOUR experience and not a fact. If you have archaeological or textual evidence for anything you state here, then present it. But "dreams" and "memories" are, IMO, the product of (at the minimum) a fanciful mind, and cannot be proven without some form of back-up verifiable support. To date, you have presented none.

Frater0082 wrote:
How the hell do you know what year Seti was born HOW? You claim Y4 of Tutankhamen but where in God's name is your evidence.


For one, I can count: I told you that when Seti I died, it is established forensic FACT that he was less than 40 years old, and the generally accepted age is that he was about 37 years old when he died.

Now, carefully follow what I said (get a darned calculator, for heavens' sake!)

Seti I = 37 years at death:

less 11 year reign (he had no coregency with his father Ramses I (Murnane 1977), meaning he ascended the throne at 26 years of age (FACT);

less 2 year reign of his father, Ramses I (FACT) (meaning he was 24 at the beginning of his father's reign);

less 14 year reign of Horemheb (FACT) (meaning Seti I was 10 at the beginning of Horemheb's reign);

less 4 year reign of Ay (FACT) (meaning Seti I was 6 years old at the beginning of Ay's reign), and (keep up here)

EQUALS = Seti I was born roughly in Year 4 Tutankhamun (Tutankhamun having a 10-year reign (FACT)).

Even if Seti was 40 at death (at latest), he still would have been born Year 1 Tutankhamun and was never personally acquainted with Akhenaten or his reign. Now, I have proved my point, with simple arithmetic: why is that so difficult for you to understand?

Frater0082 wrote:
Plus if you are accurate on this I don't see how Seti would have known about Akhenaten. It is clear that Seti had a real hatred for Akhenaten even more so than his predecessors.


Yet, if is YOU who stated:

Seti had a great hatred for Akhenaten for his religous turmoils. King Seti wouldn't even have known about Akhenaten or his religious turmoils unless he may have lived it. (my underlining)

You are the one who stated that Seti I's hatred of Akhenaten an his reign came from personal experience - that he lived through the reign of that king. So, this is why I refuted that contention, as Seti I was born during the reign of Tutankhamun, some 5+ years after Akhenaten's last regnal year and year of his death. He could not have 'hated' Akhenaten by any direct experience with that king's reign.

Frater0082 wrote:
Thirdly, it is suggested that Seti's main focus was to restore order in Egpyt. How so when clearly there was MORE than enough time to do that before him.

4 Pharaohs and Egypt was still inturmoil(why is that)
niether Ay nor Horembed had a single heir
Hmmm but it sounds to me that the end of dynasty 18 was scanty.


Once again, you exhibit your ignorance of the institution of Egyptian kingship, which you would know if you would bother to read scholarly articles on the topic.

EVERY new regent states, when he comes upon the throne, that the land was in chaos, and it is his duty to put the land back into order (Moers 2004; Assmann 1989). In fact every king states that it is his sole purpose to "set the land right" when he ascends the throne, so one should never assume that what is being discussed is actual political or social chaos - it is, in fact, a tenet of Egyptian social life that the king must fight off chaos in Egyptian society every day or his life (Bonhême and Forgeau 1988), and after he dies, his akh does the same in the nightly journey of Ra (Assmann 2002; Griffis 2002).

(snipped silliness)

Frater0082 wrote:
lastly when I said might as well I didnt meant that Horembed was a co-regent regent. HELL some one was because Tut was 9. Someone had to acted on his part until he was old enough to make his own decisions some one like Ay but more pacifically Horembed because he had more power than Ay.


We have been over this several times: simply because a modern 9 year old could not rule alone, this doesn't mean that a 9-19 year old king could not rule effectively as a ruler - first with advisers, but after the age of puberty (12), Tutankhamun most certainly could have ruled by his own will. There is evidence he actually led a war campaign against Syria during his reign and won (Johnson 1992).

Further, you have no evidence that Horemheb was preferred advisor over Ay: Ay was Tutankhamun's mentor (/it nTr/) and his vizier: Horemheb was the general of the armies (in fact we have only his word that he ever was the "king's spokesperson," from Horemheb's coronation decree). By presence alone, Ay would have been a more likely advisor to the king (van den Boorn 1998), as Horemheb is known to have been abroad fighting the Hittites during a large portion of Tutankhamun's reign. Ay was of the noble class: Horemheb was not; Ay had served the previous Amarna kings (Akhenaten and "King Neferneferuaten" at Amarna: he may have also served Smenkhkare as well, though we have no textual proof Schaden 1977). So, in all, Ay was the more likely early advisor to the king, but this is really a moot point as Tutankhamun appears to have been clearly in charge by his teens, and definitely so by the time of his death.

The "Egyptian Queen" correspondence indicates that at the time of Tutankhamun's death, no heir had been designated. This is the whole point of the correspondence: Ankhsenamun is stating there is a political power struggle over the throne, that she doesn't want to marry a "servant of mine," and her solution is to marry a prince of the Hittites, the son of Suppiluliumas. But since the correspondence became lengthy, she lost this chance and ended up marrying one of the players in the struggle, Ay, which is evidenced by the Newberry Ring.

{snip of remaining silliness)

As noted here, discussions on this list require more than "feelings", "memories" and/or "dreams." It requires verifiable proof in the form of archaeological evidence and/or textual evidence contemporaneous with the period.

To date, you have offered no proof and yet you ask that we listen to your "memories" as if they actually proved something. Again, they do NOT.

References:

Assmann, J. 2002. The Mind of Egypt: History and Meaning in the Time of the Pharaohs. New York: Metropolitan Books/Henry Holt and Co.

_________. 1989. State and Religion in the New Kingdom. In W. K. Simpson, Ed., Religion and Philosophy in Ancient Egypt: 55-88. New Haven: Yale University Press.

Bonhême, M.-A. and A. Forgeau 1988. Pharaon: les secrets du pouvoir. Paris: Armand Colin.

Breasted, J. H. 1906. Ancient Records of Egypt. The Eighteenth Dynasty. Urbana and Chicago: University of Illinois Press.

Davies, B. G. 1992. Egyptian Historical Records of the Later Eighteenth Dynasty. Warminster: Aris and Phillips, Ltd.

__________. 1994. Egyptian Historical Records of the Later Eighteenth Dynasty. Warminster: Aris and Phillips, Ltd.

__________. 1995. Egyptian Historical Records of the Later Eighteenth Dynasty. Warminster: Aris and Phillips.

Griffis, K. 2002.Traversing the Far-Land: Post-Amarna through Early Ramesside Royal Tombs as Sacred Landscapes in Ancient Egypt. M.A. dissertation (Unpublished). Institute of Archaeology. University College London.

Johnson, W. R. 1992. An Asiatic Battle Scene of Tutankhamun from Thebes: A Late Amarna Antecedent of the Ramesside Battle-Narrative Tradition. Ph.D (Unpublished). Chicago: The University of Chicago.

Moers, G. 2004. Der König als Bezwinger des Chaos. In Petschel, S. and M. von Falck (eds), Pharao siegt immer: Krieg und Frieden im alten Ägypten. Gustav-Lübcke-Museum Hamm, 21. März - 31. Oktober 2004: 25. Bönen: Kettler.

Murnane, W. J. 1995. Texts from the Amarna Period in Egypt. Society of Biblical Literature: Writings from the Ancient World 5. Atlanta: Scholars Press.

____________. 1977. Ancient Egyptian Coregencies. SAOC 40. Chicago: Oriental Institute.

Schaden, O. J. 1977. The God's Father, Ay. Ph.D. Dissertation (Unpublished). Department of History. Minneapolis: University of Minnesota.

van den Boorn, G. B. F. 1998. The Duties of the Vizier. Civil Administration in the Early New Kingdom. Studies in Egyptology. London: Kegan Paul International.

The above is an example of how to present a point of view with verifiable proof: it would do you well to read articles on the Amarna, post-Amarna, and Ramessid periods - on the political social, religious, etc. culture of the time, information on major political players, etc. before making foolish statements that cannot be supported by the facts.
_________________
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg

Doctoral Candidate
Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies
Doctoral Programme [Egyptology]
Oxford University
Oxford, United Kingdom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 4163
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the jar labels from KV 57 in detail see...

Jacobus van Dijk : New Evidence on the Length of the Reign of Horemheb. - In: Journal of the American Research Center in Egypt 44. - 2008. - pp. 193 - 200
Abstract wrote:
Based upon new finds from excavations at the tomb of Horemheb in the Valley of the Kings (KV 57) the author discusses the probable length of the reign of Horemheb of the 18th Dynasty. After noting the findings of numerous wine jar labels, the initial interpretation supports a reign length of 14 years with probable burial at the beginning of the 15th regnal year at the latest. A survey of the many discussions of the length of Horemheb's reign is included.

Greetings, Lutz.
_________________
Ägyptologie Forum (German)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Pyramids, Tombs, & Monuments All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group