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About Exodus.
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Robson
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, Manetho also wrote (according to Josephus) that

"They (the Hyksos) built a city in that country which is now called Judea and that large enough to contain a great number of men and called it Jerusalem".
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Iker
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidneyF,

Would it be possible to set out concisely your arguments on different Hyksos periods you mention above and the manner they left Egypt or links to previous posts?
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Unas
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:


For me, personally, the Biblical story--while nice as a story--makes no sense. For one thing, lacking any sort of popular media or means of communication, could all the persons of foreign background in Egypt be organized--


Can I comment just a bit on this? I'm not trying to be disagreeable. If you look from strictly a human viewpoint, then lots of things in the Bible won't make sense. But if you take into account what the Bible says about God--that He's infinite, that He created everything, etc...--things begin to become clear. Again, not trying to disagree, just pointing out there is more than one way to look at this.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unas wrote:
... just pointing out there is more than one way to look at this.

About faith can not be argued, that makes little sense. Either you believe it or not. The problems arising in the moment in which people consider it as a history book... Often, unfortunately, in order to justify political claims to power or to impose their way of life to others.

Greetings, Lutz.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the series of events, according to Manetho:

1. Prolonged war against the Shepherd-rulers

2. King Tethmosis [Thutmose I] drove them out

3. Misphragmoutosis [Thutmose III] confined some Shepherds at Avaris, having driven them out of the rest of Egypt.

4. "Thummosis" [Thutmose IV] the "son" of Misphragmoutosis, allowed those persons to leave Avaris by agreement

5. "Amenophis" [Amenhotep III or IV] banished some diseased persons and allowed them to inhabit the ruined city of Avaris. These people form an alliance with others who had been expelled by Tethmosis in years past. Their leader is Osarseph, a priest of Heliopolis.

6. "Amenophis" [Merneptah?] is forced to leave Egypt and put himself under the protection of the Viceroy of Kush [probably Messuy]. But later on, his son "Sethos, also called Ramesses" defeats the enemies of his father.

In here, somewhere, is some actual history of which we are not aware. As Josephus, himself. states, Manetho might have combined 5 and 6 in the same tale. He did not seem to know the difference between the names "Amenhotep" and "Merneptah", as he even writes Merneptah as "Amenophis" in his Dynasty 18. Obviously, some 19th Dynasty rulers were erroneously included in the 18th. The ancient historians quite usually called Kush "Ethiopia". The "King of Ethiopia" is obviously the Viceroy of Kush. In his time, Akhenaten charged his own viceroy with forming an army because he knew he could do it. In the tale, the Viceroy of Kush seems to be more powerful than the pharaoh who needed his protection. It may be that the "Sethos" who drove the undesirables into Asia was Setnakht, who said so on his Elephantine Stela. Manetho was never quite sure which pharaoh was the actual son of another and the fact that "son" and "successor" were written with the same word, just as was "father" and "predecessor", did not perhaps make things easier.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Headless statue of the Viceroy of Kush, Thutmose, found at Gebel Barkal:


http://www.mfa.org/collections/object/statue-of-the-viceroy-thutmose-436424

This is what it says on the Buhen Stela, from Year 12:

"His Majesty, l.p.h. was in Akhetaten when one came to tell his Majesty that the enemies of the foreign country of Ikayta were plotting rebellion and had even invaded the land of the Nilotic Nubians. Thereupon his Majesty charged the King's Son of Kush and overseer of the southern countries with assembling an army in order to defeat the enemies of the foreign country of Ikayta."

This toponym is spelled "ikAti" or "iKAytA." It is obviously, from the orthography, to be pronounced "Akayta". But Akhenaten could not stop the Apiru from killing all his vassals in Canaan.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has an uraeus been added to the brow of the Viceroy of Kush, Messuy? Aidan Dodson has his doubts, but it rather looks that way to me!

http://books.google.com/books?id=DBnN9I8EvjsC&pg=RA1-PR10&lpg=RA1-PR10&dq=Merneptah+AND+Messuy+viceroy&source=bl&ots=dG9Hx4zHOZ&sig=btkRt9VDVpjJlzK18amWIcxTRos&hl=en&sa=X&ei=E15qU9_YIpWkyATat4DABg&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Merneptah%20AND%20Messuy%20viceroy&f=false
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Notice that the viceroy of Ahkenaten had the name of "Thutmose" and saw no reason to change it. He was not afraid of the king. I brought up these viceroys of Kush because I think there is something that provides a link to who Moses must have been--although it's not possible, with present information, to assign him to a specific reign.

There is nothing in the Bible that indicates Moses was successful in Ethiopia/Kush. However, it clearly states he had a wife of that location, something his siblings did not like: "And Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married; for he had married an Ethiopian woman" (Num. 12.1)

Why would someone of the stature of Moses, raised in the royal court, have married a woman from "vile Kush"--unless that's where he had been living? Jewish legends connect Moses to Kush, in fact point to his success there. He was a military leader and had even married an "Ethiopian princess", became "king of Ethiopia". This was his position until he left, presumably to return to Egypt, and then he appointed his wife's son in his place. However, he returned to face a jealous co-regent with a pharaoh named "Palmanothes" [pn-imn-Htp]. In fact this ruler, who had married "Merris", the daughter of "Palmanothes", conspired to get rid of Moses. But Moses killed the man who was supposed to kill him and then fled Egypt.

Therefore, even though I don't know who Moses actually was, I think it very likely he was a viceroy of Kush.
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