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Amenhotep III's daughter statue discovered in Kom El Hitan

 
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:16 pm    Post subject: Amenhotep III's daughter statue discovered in Kom El Hitan Reply with quote

Amenhotep III's daughter statue discovered in Kom El Hitan (Luxor Times, 07. March 2014)
Quote:
"... The Minister said that the discovered statue is a part of 14 meters height colossi of alabaster used to be erected in front of the third pylon of the temple. Most of the colossi parts were discovered in the past few years. The colossi would have shown Amenhotep III with his daughter who was called "Iset". ... The daughter wears a round wig and laying her hands next to her holding a menit (menat) necklace in her right hand. Her name and titles were inscribed near her feet including "Great Royal Wife" and "The beloved of her father". ..."

Greetings, Lutz.
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Pete
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Lutz. Was Iset Amenhotep's full wife and do you know if they had children?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, a link to a picture on Jane Akshar`s Blog "Luxor News". It shows the state of the recovery of the third colosus, to which the statue belongs: Amenhotep III - The Third Colosus at Kom el-Hettan

Pete wrote:
Was Iset Amenhotep's full wife and do you know if they had children?

The question whether these "father-daughter-marriages" were really physically consummated compounds, is still controversial. Evidence is there not really. Children from a compound of Amenhotep III with one of his daughters are not assignable.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
... Children from a compound of Amenhotep III with one of his daughters are not assignable. ...

Arielle P. Kozloff : Amenhotep III - Egypt's Radiant Pharaoh. - Cambridge : University Press, 2012. - 370 p. On page 194 it is supposed that there is an indication of a possible son of Sitamun. On a relief that Petrie during his excavations in Thebes West, in the House for Millions of Years for Amenhotep II, has found (Petrie, Six Temples at Thebes, 1897, p. 6) we see Sitamun with name in cartouche and vulture headdress:


(London, Petrie Museum, UC 1437, Picture in public domain by Jon Bodsworth)

The temple of Amenhotep II was restored and in parts new build from / under Amenhotep III. This explains a presentation of Sitamun from there. Kozloff mentions "another small fragment" with "the head of a young prince wearing one lock of hair braided to the side.". She is seeing in this prince a son of Sitamun. Why (stile? direct connection scene?) she explains not.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
The question whether these "father-daughter-marriages" were really physically consummated compounds, is still controversial. Evidence is there not really. Children from a compound of Amenhotep III with one of his daughters are not assignable.


I did not know this issue was controversial. I thought usage like "Great Wife" and similar terms meant 'wife' as one would commonly thnk of them, meaning a normal male/female relationship. Why would terms like this be used for something that did not conform to normal thoughts on marriage, I wonder? What do those who oppose the sexual aspect propose was the reason for calling these female children 'wives'?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete wrote:
Lutz wrote:
The question whether these "father-daughter-marriages" were really physically consummated compounds, is still controversial. ...

I did not know this issue was controversial. I thought usage like "Great Wife" and similar terms meant 'wife' as one would commonly think of them, meaning a normal male/female relationship. Why would terms like this be used for something that did not conform to normal thoughts on marriage, I wonder? What do those who oppose the sexual aspect propose was the reason for calling these female children 'wives'?

It will be called different reasons. The most important are undoubtedly ritual-mythological or power-political.

By combining father-daughter, ritual the mythological proportions of the gods be traced. The protagonists identifyed with the divine role models. Specifically, the myths circle around the sun god Ra and the theological concepts of Iunu / Heliopolis play a role here. The known father-daughter connections emerge at longer reigning kings, in the last section of the government. They could purely have also practical reasons: relieving the older Great Royal Wife (and mother) in the area cult and ritual.

A second aspect could be the possibility of creation of a competitors line to the reigning house. The "Hereditary Princess" of pure royal blood could, in the case of an absent or very weak legitimate successor, be important / used for legitimation.

Furthermore, the supply aspect of the adult daughter could play a role. If no matching consort (prince, high official) comes as husband in question for the daughter of the god-king (for which it can give different, in my view also even purely human-emotional reasons), the daughter is material supplied (despite the missing husband) through the with the title associated possessions and income.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Lutz.

I don't know if this is in any way germane to this topic, but I'm reminded of the Genesis tale of Abraham and Sarah. Abraham passes her off as his Sister then when Pharoah gets interested in her, he admits she is is Wife. I've never understood Abraham would say she was his sister in the first place? I've always entertained the possibility Sarah was Abraham's wife and sister. I have often thought the tale a little odd somehow. Could it even have been some surreptitious commentary on Pharoahs taking sisters (or daughters) as wives, whatever the reason for such marital (?) connections. Idea

Sorry if I am digresing from the main ideas we're looking at here.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:33 pm    Post subject: daughter-wives Reply with quote

So far we have several Pharaoh who married their daughters (Amenhotep III and Ramses II are certain Achnaten is another possibility).

We know both Sitamun and Iset were married to their father as were several daughters of Ramses II. Only one of those ladies had a child and that was one of Ramses II's daughters. The child is however not listed as his so must have been born to the princess outside wedlock or from a previous marriage (to???).
That is why there is speculation about the nature of the father-daughter marriages of these Pharaohs.
The daughter-wife could perform certain religious acts and was elevated by the marriage to a status higher than that of just a princess.

If Iset did have a child with her father that would make clear that at least that marriage was not just in name. It would also open up a number of new options for the family-tree of the late 18th dynasty and potential links with the early 19th dynasty.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another possibility is that Iset was the GRW of Amenhotep IV as co-regent and may be KV35YL.

Pure speculation, but Amenhotep IV fathered Tutankhamun with a full sister who must surely have had GRW status at some point.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Lutz wrote:
... Children from a compound of Amenhotep III with one of his daughters are not assignable. ...

Arielle P. Kozloff : Amenhotep III - Egypt's Radiant Pharaoh. - Cambridge : University Press, 2012. - 370 p. On page 194 it is supposed that there is an indication of a possible son of Sitamun. On a relief that Petrie during his excavations in Thebes West, in the House for Millions of Years for Amenhotep II, has found (Petrie, Six Temples at Thebes, 1897, p. 6) we see Sitamun with name in cartouche and vulture headdress:


(London, Petrie Museum, UC 1437, Picture in public domain by Jon Bodsworth) ..."

Christian Bayer : Das Relief einer Königin im Petrie Museum, London (UC 14373). - In: Göttinger Miszellen - GM 220. - 2009. - pp. 7 - 15

refuses an assignment to the daughter of Amenhotep III on stylistic grounds of the relief work, as I personally find convincing. He assigns the fragment in the time of Amenhotep II and sees here the daughter of Ahmes-Nefertari and sister of Amenhotep I, the God's Wife Satamun. She turns up in Theban tombs and temples in different lineages. Obviously, she was therefore particularly venerated in ancestor worship.

It could therefore be once part of one of the earliest representations of the worship of the ancestors of the 18th Dynasty. The inscription "Lords of eternity, Great one of infinity" in the tomb of xaj-Inj-Hnt to a similar line of sitting ancestor royality from the early 18th Dynasty explains the royal ornat.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

karnsculpture wrote:
Another possibility is that Iset was the GRW of Amenhotep IV as co-regent and may be KV35YL.

Pure speculation, but Amenhotep IV fathered Tutankhamun with a full sister who must surely have had GRW status at some point.

Why "must" she "surely have had"?

In TT 192 - Kheruef we find some of the earliest representations of Amenhotep IV, offering alone in front of his parents - but also offering in front of his father, accompanied by his mother the Great Royal Wife Tiye. If he still had a Great Royal Wife already at its own should not this queen be pictured together with him in these scenes (even more when she was a daughter of Amenhotep III and Teje)?

Greetings, Lutz.

The Tomb of Kheruef - Theban Tomb 192. - [OIP 102]. - Chicago : The Oriental Institute, 1980. - ISBN : 0-918986-23-0. - xx, 80 p., 88 pl., key plans.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Kozloff mentions "another small fragment" with "the head of a young prince wearing one lock of hair braided to the side.". She is seeing in this prince a son of Sitamun. Why (stile? direct connection scene?) she explains not.

Greetings, Lutz.


We have also the example of Bintanath depicted both as King's Daughter and Great Royal Wife alongside with the King's Sons Ramesses, Khaemwaset and Merneptah who, however, are not her children.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robson wrote:
Lutz wrote:
Kozloff mentions "another small fragment" with "the head of a young prince wearing one lock of hair braided to the side.". She is seeing in this prince a son of Sitamun. Why (stile? direct connection scene?) she explains not.
We have also the example of Bintanath depicted both as King's Daughter and Great Royal Wife alongside with the King's Sons Ramesses, Khaemwaset and Merneptah who, however, are not her children.

Bayer gives as one example for his idea of a line of ancestors in his article "Das Relief einer Königin im Petrie Museum, London UC 14373" (GM 220. - 2009) the ancestral line in TT 2 (19th Dynasty), in which also Satamun, sister of Amenhotep I, appears. The members of the royal family of the Ahmosids / Thutmosids are here in line sitting on block thrones (a formally similar presentation can be also found in TT 359 from the 20th Dynasty). On the right outer fold of the relief from the Petrie Museum Bayer recognizes remains of an reliefing, which he interprets as a further, in front of her, sitting figure.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two more colossal pharaoh statues unveiled in Egypt (March 23, 2014)

In pictures: The Colossal statues of Pharaoh Amenhotep III (March 24, 2014)

Ancient Egypt: Two More Colossal Pharaoh Amenhotep III Statues Raised in Luxor (Mary-Ann Russon - March 24, 2014)

Massive statues of Egyptian Pharaoh Amenhotep III in the Luxor Valley (March 24, 2014)

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Amenhotep III Colossi at the Northern Gate of his Temple is Finally Unveiled" (Luxor Times, 14.12.2014)

Greetings, Lutz.
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