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neseret
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Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 1033
Location: United Kingdom
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 Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Meritamon wrote: | | Firstly, why? I believe I stated my feeling about films like this in another thread. Batman is Moses? Uh.. I don't mind that really. Please stop using Ramsses II. I know he had a long reign, but that doesn't mean that happened during it. Why does everyone assume he is that Pharaoh? |
I think it has to do more with Jewish folklore than anything else. In oral tradition the pharaoh of the Exodus is called Melol* (yes, they did have a name for the pharaoh!), which puns with the Hebrew term for 'bitter' (marah), as in Exodus 1: 13-14: 13 The Egyptians became ruthless in imposing tasks on the Israelites, 14 and made their lives bitter with hard service in mortar and brick and in every kind of field labor. Eventually, the folklore states that the Hebrews called the pharaoh Meror, meaning the "bitter one" (Rappoport 1966: 191; 200).
Over the years, certain Egyptologists have noted that some of the epithetical names of kings contain the term /mry/, which can means "chosen by" or "beloved by" X deity. Ramses II's epithetical part of his throne name is /mry ra/, "Chosen by Ra", which could explain the "Melol/Meror" name in the folklore.
So, it's not as if there's no basis to think that Ramses II couldn't be the pharaoh of the Exodus, but no conclusive proof he was as well.
* Interestingly, this Melol was said to have been 26 years of age when he ascended the throne, and reigned for 94 years, which argues for a long-reigning king of Egypt. Few could argue that Ramses II was one of a handful of kings who reigned so very long in Egypt, having attained the thrown (by his own admission) at about age 24 and ruling for what is stated in the royal annals as 67 years. This too may explain why Ramses II is most often thought of as the Exodus king.
Reference:
Rappoport, A. and R. Patai. 1966. Myth and Legend in Ancient Israel. New York: Ktav Publishing House.
HTH.
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Katherine Griffis-Greenberg
Doctoral Candidate
Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies
Doctoral Programme [Egyptology]
Oxford University
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Meritamon
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Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 298
Location: Thebes
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for that explanation, neseret. It is at least a clue.
I don't really have a preferred Exodus Pharaoh. I'm not sure there will a conclusive agreement as to who it was either.
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Naunacht
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Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 515
Location: U.S. NJ
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| karnsculpture wrote: | This paper is quite interesting, it links the expunged figure Mehy from reliefs of Seti I with that of Moses. I think the movie is going to follow a similar plot.
http://www.egyptologyforum.org/EMP/Mehy.pdf |
Interesting ideas here--maybe a bit of an overreach to say he was Moses but certainly there could have been plenty of drama going on behind Ramses II's seemingly placid reign. |
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Lutz
Pharaoh
Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 4202
Location: Berlin, Germany
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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See also ... William J. Murnane : The Kingship of the Nineteenth Dynasty - A Study in the Resilience of an Institution. - In: Ancient Egyptian Kingship. - [O'Connor, David and Silverman, David P. (eds)]. - Leiden : E. J. Brill, 1995. - pp. 185 - 217 :
| Quote: | | OEB 39436 (AEB 1995.0488) : "... Given Ramses I's preroyal career and the XIXth Dynasty's elite background, the succession from Horemheb to Ramses I was anything but "normal" by the standards of the XVIIIth Dynasty. In Karnak, on the north wall of the Great Hypostyle Hall of the Temple of Amun, the figure of Seti I killing a Libyan is flanked by figures which originally represented the military official Mehy. These figures were later usurped by Ramses II to portray himself as crown prince, a practice that exemplifies the new dynasty's insecurity. To explain this usurpation of Mehy's figure, in whose position Ramses definitely saw a threat, the author considers the dynastic policy of Ramses II in some detail. Some points of discussion are the proliferation of princes and princesses in royal monuments, their possible political roles, the battle of Kadesh, and the subsequent propaganda campaign. It is shown that even the stability of Ramses II's reign was no foregone conclusion. So uncertain of itself was the new dynasty that it first permitted the advancement of an interloper such as Mehy and only later realized the danger his career might pose to a royal family whose roots also lay in the military sector. Ramses II quickly redressed the balance by promoting his own sons to an unprecedented position in public life, then maintained that policy so successfully that it became standard practice throughout the later N.K. ..." |
Greetings, Lutz.
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Ankhetmaatre
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karnsculpture
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Joined: 27 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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There are so many mistakes that spoil enjoyment of the visual spectacle. Moses thought he was Horemheb's grandson. The problem with that is that given the ages of the characters, Moses would have been a legitimate king.
Ramses wears the queen's vulture headdress throughout a major battle sequence. Later on he wears a very odd nemes with a version of what appears to be Nefertiti's crown.
The pyramids are shown as under construction (or restoration?)
In a quarry scene, colossi of Ramses are being carved long before he is Pharoah, other colossi shown have Joel Edgerton's features while his father is still on the throne. |
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Lutz
Pharaoh
Joined: 02 Sep 2007
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Location: Berlin, Germany
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| Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| karnsculpture wrote: | | "... The pyramids are shown as under construction (or restoration?) ... |
I think this is one of the hangers for the ban in Egypt. It is suggested that the pyramids were built by the Israelites...
Greetings, Lutz.
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Naunacht
Priest
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 515
Location: U.S. NJ
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:13 am Post subject: |
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Did anyone actually see it?
I was going to but when the reviews came up universally negative I decided to save my money and catch it on TV. Seems for all that money they could have done a little research on costumes, etc.
In the trailers Moses is shown riding into battle on some big moose of a horse (looks like a warmblood of some sort) in a saddle with stirrups--my favorite ancient history movie gotcha! |
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neseret
Vizier
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 1033
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| karnsculpture wrote: | | There are so many mistakes that spoil enjoyment of the visual spectacle. Moses thought he was Horemheb's grandson. The problem with that is that given the ages of the characters, Moses would have been a legitimate king. |
And of course ignoring the fact that Horemheb had no children and thus, could have no grandchildren. I wonder what the heck the scriptwriter was thinking to dream up that bit of dialogue. The whole reason the Ramessids are on the throne is because Horemheb had no children and thus had to choose Paramessu (Ramses I) to succeed him. The Ramessids considered Horemheb the "ancestor" of their dynasty, but even they could not create an entire set of children and grandchildren for him. It was well-known that he died without issue.
Besides, if we follow the logic of the relationships, Bithiah was Seti I's sister, which meant that she would have been Ramses I's daughter. Ramses I should have been the grandfather, not Horemheb. Another bad slip of history as well. 
| karnsculpture wrote: | | Ramses wears the queen's vulture headdress throughout a major battle sequence. Later on he wears a very odd nemes with a version of what appears to be Nefertiti's crown. |
The whole costuming of this affair was a fiasco, IMO. You have the priestess/oracle wearing a Nefertiti headdress (my husband, who is, shall we say, NOT into Egyptology, picked that one up right away!), you have Ramses II in a queen's headdress, and you have Tuya (played by Sigourney Weaver) in a peacock crown. It's like the costumers looked over the past 100 years of movie costumes and headdresses from each and every movie ever made, and said, "Hey, let's use this! No one will know or care..." 
| karnsculpture wrote: | | The pyramids are shown as under construction (or restoration?) |
I'd say 'building': we know of no "restoration" of Egyptian monuments until the time of Khaemwaset, Ramses II's 5th son, who isn't born at the time of the movie, and who only served to restore such monuments after attaining adulthood.
| karnsculpture wrote: | | In a quarry scene, colossi of Ramses are being carved long before he is Pharoah, other colossi shown have Joel Edgerton's features while his father is still on the throne. |
Well, we know Ramses II had a big ego, right? 
Seriously, another great flaw. It's as if the director and staff did not really care what they were doing. 
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Katherine Griffis-Greenberg
Doctoral Candidate
Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies
Doctoral Programme [Egyptology]
Oxford University
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Meritamon
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Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 298
Location: Thebes
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Lutz wrote: | | karnsculpture wrote: | | "... The pyramids are shown as under construction (or restoration?) ... |
I think this is one of the hangers for the ban in Egypt. It is suggested that the pyramids were built by the Israelites...
Greetings, Lutz. |
Seriously? I thought there was much evidence they were built by the Egyptians as a big public project.
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Priest of Hekat
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Joined: 30 Sep 2010
Posts: 168
Location: Luxor, West Bank
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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As has already been said Hollywood never lets factual reality get in the way of a good show (in their minds)
As a further example of their efforts, has anyone watched Noah yet!!!!! |
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Robson
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Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1009
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 2:46 am Post subject: |
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| Lutz wrote: | | karnsculpture wrote: | | "... The pyramids are shown as under construction (or restoration?) ... |
I think this is one of the hangers for the ban in Egypt. It is suggested that the pyramids were built by the Israelites...
Greetings, Lutz. |
I think tha worse than that was to depict God in an anthropomorphical appearence in a Muslim country. |
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Daughter_Of_SETI
Divine Adoratrice
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 2563
Location: Hull, UK
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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LOL This film was riddled with flaws, but I actually enjoyed it. I can understand them "remaking" their own history to fit in with a storyline they have in mind (though doing so with stories so famous that they're in the Bible is to do so at your own risk and humiliation!), but a lot of the mistakes were just plainly from having done no research, or ignoring any research done.
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Meritamon
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Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 298
Location: Thebes
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| Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:55 am Post subject: |
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Finally saw it. The movie seems very... big, like it wants to be epic. I did like Joel Edgerton. Bearded Moses reminded me of in-training Batman. Lots of mistakes, and I probably missed some. That crocodile scene... did I accidentally go to a shark attack movie?
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