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Unrecognized Hieroglyph

 
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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:15 pm    Post subject: Unrecognized Hieroglyph Reply with quote

Does anyone know what the highlighted hieroglyph is supposed to be?




According to Steindorff, it is like the frog determinative.
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Kmt is not a racial term nor a reference to the black silt deposited on the Nile valley, but an expression of "standing on place wherein food is plenty, allowing to stop moving like the neighbouring nomads". -Asar Imhotep
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Aset
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

May be F 27 Idea

RANKE recorded two names: 336.8 and 120.1)



See also TLA Arrow document DZA 30.401.870 (qrr - "Frosch" / "frog")

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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect a representation of a tadpole? Would indeed fit into the frog-meaning...

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz: I 8 Idea

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Lost Pharaoh
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have looked at this hieroglyph and I developed two possible theories of its meaning or representation.

Theory 1: A representation of the frog looked from above with tongue out for catching a pray.

Theory 2: Some type or vessel or jug spilling out water (liquid).



I will spend more time on weekend looking for solution Smile
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Tilgner has send me the following informations about this topic...

"The original text is from the so-called "Dream Stela" (Cairo JdE 48863). Steindorff referred in his "Miscellany" on Auguste Mariette, Monuments divers, Paris 1872, pl. 8 line 36.

A new description can be found in N.-C. Grimal, Quatre Stèles napatéennes au Musée du Caire, Le Caire, 1981. This work also contains photographs of the processed stelae. The conservation status is modest. I find it remarkable that the reviser have ever found out anything!

It can easily be seen that it is not a standard hieroglyph in the Steindorff essay, but an attempt to empathize with the unidentified characters reasonably accurate. Steindorffs presumption that it is I 7, the frog, he finds confirmed by a parallel.

Mariette :


Grimal :




The passage to read today : "jrj-pa.t HA.tj-a n pr-spdw pA-qrr" - "Prince Regent and Count of the 'House of Sopdu' Pa-kerer".

"pr-spdw" is today equated with Saft el-Henna (in the eastern delta). The name "pA-qrr" means "The Frog". This is strange as a name, see the comments in Ranke, Personennamen, Vol. II, pp 182-185, "pet names" (as a personal name). While "Lion" as a name can be understand because of its strength, "Frog" is really strange, "the joking comparison of the tiny newborn with animals such as Frogs and Tadpoles, Fish and Grasshopper or Mouse" (page 182) is perhaps a reason for this name."

Greetings, Lutz.
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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks everyone for the great help. I have to agree with Lutz about quantity vs quality. Despite this forum is nearly deserted, I have no other that offers such a quality of responses. The second best forum I frequent (french forum), presently more active, isn't as helpful on thorny matters. I won't enter into details. I won't incur Amun's wrath. Very Happy

Anyways, it seems Lutz brought the final word on this (btw, it was an interesting theory Lost Pharaoh) via the latest revision of the Dream Stela of Tanutamani/Tanutamun/Tanwetamani.

Next time, I'll bring the sources I used before asking a question. Indeed, I should brought in light Mariette since it was the starting point (it wasn't the ZÄS article by Steindorff originally; it was the final point in fact where I stopped). I didn't brought it up because the badly preserved sign that resembled to something in the genre of F 51 (the piece of flesh) . I was confused and that led me to the ZÄS article as final stopping point.

Regarding MIFAO 106 thesis by Grimal, I am pretty impressed the speed at which you proceeded to get it, Lutz. It's been something like 5 months of research to get a hold of it (internet, ILL, etc.). Even the EgyptologyForum link you gave was one of my attempt, but I contacted the wrong guy. Anyways, I'm nearly about to commit to buy the book for its analyses.

With Grimal's copy, it really seems to be the frog determinative after all.
Sadly, the photography shows the preservation is terrible.

As a quick biography for the individual in question: Pekrur (or Pakruru in Assyrian sources) was one of the Delta princes during the 25th and beginning 26th dynasty. Seemingly, he held a high position relative to the other Delta princes and was their spokesman when it came to diplomatic contacts. While I originally thought the choice of the name was for the ridicule because he was a problem for Psamtik I, founder the 26th "Libyan" Dynasty. He plotted and made alliance with the Kushite nobility of the 25th Dynasty. I thought so until I realize the Dream Stela of Tanutamun (last contender of the 25th Dynasty rulers for the Theban throne) also called him so. Interestingly, no record states he was punished/deported by the Assyrians for breaking the adû-agreement (a.k.a. oath of loyalty for vassals).
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Lost Pharaoh
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Smile
This is the small but very helpfull forum, we few very quality people who know what they do Smile I am thankful also for all help I get here.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lost Pharaoh wrote:
... This is the small but very helpfull forum ...

And where is the big?

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mean small in number of active people Smile
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And where is the one with the big number ?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mean in comparison with other (non-Egyptologic) forums Smile
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