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General Pashedenbastet Alabaster Inscription from Nuri

 
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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:12 pm    Post subject: General Pashedenbastet Alabaster Inscription from Nuri Reply with quote

Hello,
while I finally got my hands on the facsimile of the artefact that led Reisner to think the Kushite dynasty was of libyan origin, I found something irregular.


Basically, this fragment was found in pyramid 38 (queen Akheqa) in the Nuri royal cemetary. This very artefact was Reisner's main (and today obsolete?) argument to think one of the ruler before Alara (the first one known by name) was a certain General named Pashedenbastet (which was hypothetized to be buried in the Ku.Tumulus 1 in El-Kurru royal cemetary).

As far as I understood, the inscription says: "Overseer of the Army, Great One [lost] Pashedenbastet, justified, son of the King of Two-Lands, Amun's beloved Shoshenq".

My problem is the name in the cartouche. Why do I see SH-SH-K-N instead of the classical SH-SH-N-K? I know this name has variant like Shishak of the Bible and other minor forms, but given I don't know the minor forms, I find this one rather weird. Either Reisner wrongly drew it (sadly I forgot to scan the photo of the artefact if there was one) or it was an error from a scribe....

This classical variant of his name is seen hereunder as comparative element.

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Kmt is not a racial term nor a reference to the black silt deposited on the Nile valley, but an expression of "standing on place wherein food is plenty, allowing to stop moving like the neighbouring nomads". -Asar Imhotep
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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Using Lutz's forum/site (?), the Shoshenq in question seems to be the fourth one.

Here.

Given the form written in the cartouche. Perhaps the final "N" was added out of an erratum...
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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update:

Looking at the first two birth names of Shoshenq the Second, it seems the inversion of the hieroglyphs N29 and N35 is natural, although I don't understand the underlying reason to such writing choice/style.

Also, I don't think the references given will help (catalogues).

The site.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not really understand where you see the problem. The two pictures in your initial post show the same name. Just the sequence / position of the hieroglyphics is changed a little. The scription without the second "n" (N35 - waterline) at the end is also substantiated and obviously possible. An example of both variants in one text (parallel) we find in Karnak (see Jürgen von Beckerath : The Nile Level Records at Karnak and their Importance for the History of the Libyan Period, Dynasties XXII and XXIII. - In: JARCE 5. - 1966. - pp. 43-55).

The writing / translation of the ring names follows own rules. Specifically for the translation of the nj-swt-bjt or throne name there are quite different views within the professional world.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand there are special rules about names into a cartouche like the name of Re is written in foremost, but spelt at the end of the name. But, this sequence at the end, I don't see the rule behind it. Aesthetism rule?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps the rule is that there is no one here? Except the Egyptians and their Gods must be able to read and understand it and it should look nice as possible...?

I'm not the hieroglyphics-freak but is there not the construction of the "phonetic complement"? So, a hieroglyph which, although usually has a loud, but not worth being spoken here and only serves to clarify pronunciation? But this is more a question for Aset or Neseret I think... Confused

Greetings, Lutz.
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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting, the matter about hieroglyphic names within cartouches thicken.
Just as it was for Shoshenq, Psamtik I's throne name offers occasionally irregular order.

Take this example I stumbled upon hereunder:



If I interpret this correctly, I see the name of Rê is located in the middle.
I haven't found another example such as this one.

I consulted Ranke's prosographic book (p.100 for PDF format or p.73 for print) and I haven't found one example of this orthography. Take into consideration I'm still clumsy using this work...

The question begs: are there some works on this matter?
I know what Lutz told me before there might be no rules, but I am starting to wonder about this affair.
To see how Mr. Whoolley (the one who published the ring-seal) readily accepted it was Psamtik I's throne name and no comment (unless I missed it) was made about the interesting orthography bugs me.


========

P.S. @Lutz
Don't worry, I'm onto the stuff you asked me tomorrow. Smile
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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there really no literature about the subject? I looked into it today and still found nothing...
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because I take a silence like there is nothing people can add on that matter. Surprised
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh sh*t... Laughing ...just realized I grew one year closer to death today...slightly past 25 years old...we start ignoring ageing Laughing
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Medjay Archer wrote:
Is there really no literature about the subject?...

In general or for the names you mentioned? In general there is, as still mentioned several times...

Jürgen von Beckerath : Handbuch der Ägyptischen Königsnamen. - Mainz : von Zabern, 1999. - [2nd rev. and ext. ed. from the first in 1984]. - XX, 314 p., ill. - [Münchner Ägyptologische Studien 49].

He offers by the way the two other possibilities for writing the throne name of Psamtik I, with the sign for the god Ra in first and in last position inside the cartouche. So, all three versions are known and possible ...

Greetings, Lutz.
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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Medjay Archer wrote:
Is there really no literature about the subject?...

In general or for the names you mentioned? In general there is, as still mentioned several times...

Jürgen von Beckerath : Handbuch der Ägyptischen Königsnamen. - Mainz : von Zabern, 1999. - [2nd rev. and ext. ed. from the first in 1984]. - XX, 314 p., ill. - [Münchner Ägyptologische Studien 49].

He offers by the way the two other possibilities for writing the throne name of Psamtik I, with the sign for the god Ra in first and in last position inside the cartouche. So, all three versions are known and possible ...

Greetings, Lutz.


I have found the examples you said in the said book. I am curious of the proposed theories on the subject. So, yes, what are the suggestions made by scholars in general in that regards.

For my part, I may understand the placement of a god as first or center (perhaps self definition of prime importance depending of the scribe), but cases such as the first one (Psamtik I) is hard to explain.
I'm curious of the subject also because how the scholars chose the right name if these variants exist. Is it the median that is taken as the true name? Is it the first find of the name historically? Comparison with greek rendition of the name?

Hence, I'm curious about this free form style within cartouches.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Medjay Archer wrote:
Lutz wrote:
Medjay Archer wrote:
Is there really no literature about the subject?...

In general or for the names you mentioned? In general there is, as still mentioned several times...

Jürgen von Beckerath : Handbuch der Ägyptischen Königsnamen. - Mainz : von Zabern, 1999. - [2nd rev. and ext. ed. from the first in 1984]. - XX, 314 p., ill. - [Münchner Ägyptologische Studien 49]. ...
... For my part, I may understand the placement of a god as first or center (perhaps self definition of prime importance depending of the scribe), but cases such as the first one (Psamtik I) is hard to explain. ...

As this example here shows very well, the so-called "pre-position out of reverence" of the gods name is one way, no rule or regulation. Crucial is that the name remains legible and unambiguous. Both is given for all three versions here...

The throne name is clearly dominant since the Middle Kingdom, it is used in official documents, in the administration, for the foreign correspondence and uniquely identifies a ruler. In Egyptian history have, if I remember right, only one or two kings ever changed this name in basic during there reign (meant here are not changings in form of additives or supplements, these occure often, in some cases they can help in questions of chronology, to date inscriptions by year - not before or after, and so on...). By the way, Amenhotep IV / Akhenaten was not one of them.

Most Egyptologists agree that it is probably a kind of "government motto", also often are references to names of earlier rulers to recognize, see Norbert Dautzenberg: Die Wahl der königlichen Namen (2000).

More difficult it becomes when it goes about the direct translation... Here are two different main concepts exist in Egyptology. I try to show them by translating the name of Amenhotep III, the father of Akhenaton:

His throne name is "Neb Maat Ra". Most scholars translate : "The Lord of Maat is Ra". But there exists also the opinion "Lord of Maat, one Ra".

Both would be, for all we know so far about the writing of the Ancient Egyptians, entirely correct and feasible. Very different, of course, is the religiously-ideological statement of the translations... And therefore probably also the view of the person of the king himself, its position in the world system and to the gods.

Medjay Archer wrote:
... Hence, I'm curious about this free form style within cartouches.

It's absolutely the same in which point the sign for "Ra" is, the name remains distinctive and unique. And just this is important in the end...

Greetings, Lutz.
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