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evarelap
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Joined: 28 Jan 2015
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Location: Barranquilla, Colombia
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 Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:40 pm Post subject: Nefertiti's "hereditary princess" title |
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I was wondering what egyptologists make of Nefertiti's title of "hereditary princess". Is that the same as "king's daughter?". Maybe she was a daughter of Amenhotep 3 and Tiye?
In particular she is called Hereditary Princess at the Sesebi Temple in Nubia. |
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Robson
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Joined: 08 Jun 2006
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Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
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| Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Tiye was also a Hereditary Princess (iryt-p`t), but she was daughter of Yuya and Tjuya. |
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neseret
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| Robson wrote: | | Tiye was also a Hereditary Princess (iryt-p`t), but she was daughter of Yuya and Tjuya. |
To be clear, /iryt-pat/ does NOT mean "hereditary princess," but rather the equivalent of "countess," and thus denoting the holder is of noble (but not royal) birth (Ward 1982; 1986).
As Yuya held a number of elite titles, as did Thuya, it would make sense that Tiye would also hold such titles.
Similarly, Nefertiti held the title of /iryt-pat/, which likely mean she was of noble (but not royal) status. She is particularly noted for NOT having any royal titles beyond that as Great Royal Wife of Akhenaten, which like Tiye, means she was not the sister/daughter of a king.
Most queens were also considered /iryt-pat/ - some by birth, other by boon (granted the title by the king). However, this title is never an indication of "royal" status.
See:
Ward, W. A. 1986. Essays on Feminine Titles of the Middle Kingdom and Related Subjects. Beirut: American University of Beirut.
_________. 1982. Index of Administrative and Religious Titles of the Middle Kingdom. Beirut: American University of Beirut.
HTH.
_________________
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg
Doctoral Candidate
Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies
Doctoral Programme [Egyptology]
Oxford University
Oxford, United Kingdom |
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evarelap
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Joined: 28 Jan 2015
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Location: Barranquilla, Colombia
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| Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you both for your replies.
If /iryt-pat/ means "countess", and both Nefertiti and Tiye had this title, maybe this means they were family but not necessarily mother-daughter? Maybe aunt-niece or something else entirely but related to the same family?
Im thinking of other family members who may also have had this title.
But if other women or queens outside the royal family like Neseret says also had this title then it means there is really no link between Nefertiti and Tiye only because of the /iryt-pat/ title.
Did Ay had something like "hereditary prince" or the Male equivalent to "countess" (count?). |
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neseret
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Joined: 10 Jul 2008
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Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| evarelap wrote: | Thank you both for your replies.
If /iryt-pat/ means "countess", and both Nefertiti and Tiye had this title, maybe this means they were family but not necessarily mother-daughter? Maybe aunt-niece or something else entirely but related to the same family? |
Why would this be the case? As I mentioned, almost every queen (by this, I mean, Great Royal Wife, main wife of a king) carried the /iryt-pat/ title, which meant only that they carried a title of the noble class. This means likely that every female of the elite class was likely enabled to carry the title /iryt-pat/, but this would not mean that they were related to one another, or that they were related to the royal house.
We tend to think of noble titles as hereditary (passed down in families, and that they were, in turn, somehow related to a royal house). But in Egypt, many, if not a large majority, of noble titles were earned by work for the royal house, and thus granted by the king as a boon to an individual and/or his family. This did not make the holder in any way related to the king or the royal family.
| evarelap wrote: | | But if other women or queens outside the royal family like Neseret says also had this title then it means there is really no link between Nefertiti and Tiye only because of the /iryt-pat/ title. |
Exactly.
| evarelap wrote: | | Did Ay had something like "hereditary prince" or the Male equivalent to "countess" (count?). |
Most noble males carried the title of /r-pa.t/, meaning "count." Quite a few notable men carried the title, including Senenmut, Yuya, Aper-el, Ay, and Horemheb, to name a few.
See:
Taylor, J. A. 2001. An Index of Male Non-Royal Titles, Epithets & Phrases of the 18th Dynasty. London: Museum Bookshop Publications.
Ward, W. A. 1982. Index of Administrative and Religious Titles of the Middle Kingdom. Beirut: American University of Beirut.
HTH.
_________________
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg
Doctoral Candidate
Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies
Doctoral Programme [Egyptology]
Oxford University
Oxford, United Kingdom |
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yandiel
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Joined: 19 Aug 2013
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| evarelap wrote: | Thank you both for your replies.
If /iryt-pat/ means "countess", and both Nefertiti and Tiye had this title, maybe this means they were family but not necessarily mother-daughter? Maybe aunt-niece or something else entirely but related to the same family?
Im thinking of other family members who may also have had this title.
But if other women or queens outside the royal family like Neseret says also had this title then it means there is really no link between Nefertiti and Tiye only because of the /iryt-pat/ title.
Did Ay had something like "hereditary prince" or the Male equivalent to "countess" (count?). |
Iryt pat is just a title which any one of the king's wives could have had, I believe, if I'm not mistaken, the daughter(s) of the pharaoh also could carry the title or any female very close to the pharaoh almost in a way related to the word princess and obviously there'stthe male counterpart. |
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